Campaign General

[SHoGUN]

In the Historical Battles I would love to suggest an idea for the Campaign General who is essentially the team leader (as in the game Red Orchestra 2). This may seem a complex idea that could get a lot of hate, but thought it would be nice to get ideas flowing at least and feedback about what people like/dislike about it.

In the Historical Battle I'm assuming large teams of potentially 100 players could be on each team. So who gets to be General? What do Generals do while the battle goes on, and where are they positioned? Here's my seemly complicated, but surprisingly straightforward idea:

-Aspiring Generals are required to complete their single player training/tutorial explaining basic tactics and how to allocate unit selection, give commands, and set reinforcement waves. Once they successfully complete this they have the option to create their own unit selection and area of placement for each individual level/map, which becomes their 'battle plan'. You may only select the General class if you have a completed battle plan for the selected level. These battle plans aren't set in stone forever, and can be easily edited.

-Once the teams are sorted, eligible players may submit themselves as a General. A maximum of 3 players may go up for the role, giving the higher ranks priority over lesser ranks (hierarchy was always important during war). These players will have their battle statistics up on screen for all players to see and if more than 1 player has opted to become General the players will get to evaluate and elect their General within a time frame. As a very rough plan in order to get my idea across clearly, I threw together this:
2104
Here Private Average Joe beats (the incredibly awesome ;)) Major Shogun and the Sergeant to take the vote out and becomes the General for this campaign.

-When the battle starts, the General is spawned in a location around the border of the map in his tent/chair/office. The team then selects their preferred available unit that the General has pre-allocated slots for in his battle plan. Once all this is done (very quickly keep in mind) the team arrives slightly further back on the path in formations where the Officers, who are essentially Squad Leaders, lead the army towards the General for their copy of the map with indications of where the General wants each unit to travel to and advance/flank from etc. This is where Officers will need to communicate with Generals to make sure they are clear of their task and are aware of when they will receive reinforcements before heading out. This could open the possibility of the Officers wearing pocket watches. Meanwhile, the rest of the players could be collecting their supplies or weapons off of a nearby train or cart.
Here's an example of a battle map and pocket watch (visuals always nice):
21002103

-Once orders are received, gear collected, and Officers obtain the map, then head to their objectives. If anyone spots any enemies along the way that units Officer will either have instructions to engage, avoid, or wait for instructions. A messenger with information of the enemy unit is then sent back to the General who will give regular updates on where to move next, or relay messages to other Officers. (Instruments could also be used to relay simple messages to and from the General)

So that's the base of my idea. Seems complicated, but it's quite simple once everything is happening on screen at once. It raises many unanswered questions like: What will Historical Battles actually entail? Will there be in-game voice chat/typing within a limited range only? Will there be a messenger? Are instruments going to be included, and what role will they play if so? Will there even be a General, or Officer role and what will it involve? Will there be supply trains/carts?... and more, which is why this is fun to talk about and play around with ideas that the devs could possibly use.

Thanks :)

P.s. Devs: Please let there be cavalry!

[Rithal]

I believe physical player messengers have pretty much been ruled out, but other than that, I like the idea! Definitely something like this should be considered by the developers if they haven't considered it already. :)

[R21]

Great ideas, imo a Game like this needs some kind of in-Depth Campaign mode, it really would be a major selling point if done right.

https://youtu.be/-dvLf_7OsFQ?t=59

https://youtu.be/-dvLf_7OsFQ?t=108

That mod had both a physical Map and Watches but due to the small scale of maps both features got removed really early on.

I really like this idea:

http://www.warofrightsforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2104&d=1452351513

And added some of my own:

http://i.imgur.com/TKVzaqu.jpg

In RO2 the Commander has the option to force spawn (anyone in the spawn Queue will immediately spawn before the timer) i'm thinking this could be put in WOR as a Commander ability (Emergency reinf Wave) that are finite per round (like higher level Commanders might have access to 1 or 2) with which they'd be able call in an emergency set of Reinforcements (who'd appear at that teams Main spawn when this ability was activated) and would only be able to be activated if an Armies Morale/Tickets dropped beneath a certain threshold.

The only problem with completely letting people customize their Armies would be Spam (like you have in Shogun 2: fall of the Samurai) people making all cavalry or all Artillery Armies, but i'd prefer to see this feature than not have it in at all. Speaking of Shogun 2 i'd like to see generals able to earn bonuses, like stat boosts, they can equip (Slight buff for Reload speed Unit wide, carried Ammunition Increase, Cannon reload Speed Increase, Cavalry Speed/Stamina recovery increases) these could be made very meaningful if say they did things like let Cavalry-Men carry an extra Revolver they could switch to once they'd run dry with their first.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/KEHJL40OFsE/maxresdefault.jpg

something like that, but with limited points available (so they'd have to choose/specialize these skills) points being earned after successful Campaigns.

I wish they'd made this one of the big stretch goals TBH, i'd have much preferred it to the cosmetic stuff or the narrated Battlefield Tour.

And physical messengers, yeh, people would just bypass this with 3rd party audio programs like Skype or whatever. The only way I could see something like it working is if there were other benefits for a message being successfully delivered. Like if a Commander of a unit received a message from one of these messengers his unit would get a stat buff (Reload speed/Stamina) an increase in overall unit Morale, or some other benefit (like if it were an important message/order it'd enable that Commander to use certain abilities or unlock units like Artilllery).

[Jeffrey Miller]

Great idea, well written, I salute you Sir!

[TrustyJam]

Very interesting idea. Thank you for sharing it with us!

- Trusty

[A. P. Hill]

As a General, I'd still like the ability to be overcome with the heat of the battle, jump on my horse and head to the front to yell commands and directions and ride along my line to encourage my men!

[Bravescot]

As a General, I'd still like the ability to be overcome with the heat of the battle, jump on my horse and head to the front to yell commands and directions and ride along my line to encourage my men!

If you got voted in ;)

[A. P. Hill]

If you got voted in ;)

You worry too much for a young fella. ;)

[R21]

http://webpages.charter.net/heatherdowns/BF2%20Commander.pdf

BF2 had a flexible Commander system that let a Player not only Command but take part in the Battle (Giving Way-points to Squads and directing Artillery).

The problem with having one unit set up in a Command position is that you'd probably get enemy cavalry or Skirmishers making it their first objective to find the Enemy General, along with the fact that apart from Hardcore RPer's, no one would really want to stand around guarding the General while he directed the Battle:

http://imgur.com/d7XYlcm

I suppose they could make it like BF2 where if the Command post gets destroyed or attacked, that Army loses Morale (If a team lost the Command post in BF2 they'd lose UAV coverage I think, but after after a while it'd just respawn).

[SHoGUN]

Thanks for all the great feedback so far! Salutes all around!


I believe physical player messengers have pretty much been ruled out, but other than that, I like the idea! Definitely something like this should be considered by the developers if they haven't considered it already. :)
Yeah I guess playing as a messenger would be a pretty menial task but I guess one of the privates could always do this if there were enough soldiers on the line. But this still gives options for instruments to be useful between the different units in the team and perhaps just the General keeping post on high ground in order to get a clear view of what is going on, and physically riding up (on cavalry, devs!) and shouting out orders to his Officers, as A.P. Hill added. He could even be able to reinforce if one of the last lines are about to fall, with the risk of the team losing the General altogether, and the player having to spawn back in as a regular.


I really like this idea:

http://www.warofrightsforum.com/atta...4&d=1452351513

And added some of my own:

http://i.imgur.com/TKVzaqu.jpg

In RO2 the Commander has the option to force spawn (anyone in the spawn Queue will immediately spawn before the timer) i'm thinking this could be put in WOR as a Commander ability (Emergency reinf Wave) that are finite per round (like higher level Commanders might have access to 1 or 2) with which they'd be able call in an emergency set of Reinforcements (who'd appear at that teams Main spawn when this ability was activated) and would only be able to be activated if an Armies Morale/Tickets dropped beneath a certain threshold.
I love the idea of added General perks that are brought from experience from winning battles as a General. There are lots of options to add a large number of things that I don't think will over complicate it, and would be a lot of fun for the Generals to work towards, although I wouldn't want the buffs too large. I like the idea of an individual troops confidence being affected by those around him, including the men either side of him, and in this case... a General. So yes, larger team morale with the added confidence of a seasoned General would slightly help the nerves, and in turn slightly help reload speed and gun sway I believe, without it seeming tacky or unbelievable. Although the key would be keeping these morale boosts to a bare minimum.

I definitely had the RO2 team structure in mind when thinking of the idea. Rather than be able to instant-spawn like in RO2 though, I would like the idea to involve the General having to decide in advance how large his reinforcement waves are, what time they will arrive, and perhaps in emergency send out for a wave that takes a good minute to be received. But this has its own issues attached too... what of the dead players waiting to respawn? I loved the devs idea of being in 1st person while your character is bleeding out, but I would like for a player to be able to watch their own team from 1st person view only once the soldier is finally bled out on the ground. That way the player is not bored out of their mind looking at a piece of grass pondering all the mysteries of the universe for a good minute or two. Another option would be to spawn back in where they did originally after the bleed out, and collect their new players gear from supply cart/train, then wait for their Officer or General for orders while cleaning their gun, getting into formation or simply twiddling their thumbs.

The only problem with completely letting people customize their Armies would be Spam (like you have in Shogun 2: fall of the Samurai) people making all cavalry or all Artillery Armies, but i'd prefer to see this feature than not have it in at all. Speaking of Shogun 2 i'd like to see generals able to earn bonuses, like stat boosts, they can equip (Slight buff for Reload speed Unit wide, carried Ammunition Increase, Cannon reload Speed Increase, Cavalry Speed/Stamina recovery increases) these could be made very meaningful if say they did things like let Cavalry-Men carry an extra Revolver they could switch to once they'd run dry with their first.
Yes there is definitely room for additional options that would balance out situations like you mention R21. I would think a good way to structure this out would be to let Generals have that option if they insist it works, but limit the amount of reinforcements they get, and perhaps even the time it takes for them to get reinforced. If other players really disagree with that Generals current unit selection keep in mind they will be able to see this before they elect that General into command, which would encourage other players to step up and play General for their teams sake.

[Johnnyboy]

I heard they will be adding cavalry and artillery later on down the track

[SHoGUN]

This is pleasing to know^ I hope it's true. Without cavalry I feel it would definitely be lacking strategy tactics of the time, and also many other possible features, such as Generals riding around battle giving orders etc...
Just make sure that everyone here spreads the word of this game and gets as many backers as possible in order for stretch goals to happen down the line. I even went as far as sending emails to some youtube channels that I'm a fan of who I thought would be interested in purchasing the game to get in early alpha :p

[MadWolf]

I really like this idea of voting for a General :D

[SHoGUN]

Thanks :D

[Maximus Decimus Meridius]

Yes really good work. sounds really good. could be my idea :p ;)

[SemajRednaxela]

Some cracking ideas there Mr Shogun.

Well thought out and presented.

[R21]

I hope the developers take ideas like this on board, a well thought out campaign mode would add so much longevity to this Game.

[SHoGUN]

I'm loving the positive responses guys! I guess the more we get could give the devs an idea that it would perhaps be received well if this or something similar was implemented. I definitely agree R21. A good campaign mode can attract a lot of players, and keep a small community of players alive for a long time. Keep posting any honest feedback, whether it be something you don't like, or what part you may really like. Salutes all around!

[Landree]

Perhaps officers will be able to relay enemy units back to the general by some sort of spotting feature when an enemy flag is in view. This way the general can see where his units and the enemy units are on his map and place markers on the map that the officers will see in-game (much like what officers place down, except only seen by officers). This allows for orders to be placed and it is up to the discretion of the company officers as to what he actually does.

This is also an incentive to "take out" an enemy general as it could neuter a team's sense of awareness without the general's guidance. That said, I think a general should be a lone wolf as to keep as many player slots into the actual fighting forces as possible.

Captured flags, not only destroying a unit respawn, would add prestige for the general, the officer, and the soldier who captured it. These stats would only be a note, but would help in the voting process, perhaps.

As for the pre-round battle plan idea, it may work if it is kept extremely brief. A minute at most. This'd allow people to enjoy the drill camp and the officers to really lay down a quick and dirty plan for the field. Too long and the rank and file will feel like how it is to actually be in the military... Hurry up and wait.

[SemajRednaxela]

Just a thought from the main video.

I belive a General idea may already be implemented;

After the union company captures the hill point after the firefight with the Confederates on the high ground they are targeted moving forwards of the just captured point.... and potentially all killed by she'll burst artillery fire.

I here by say that this artillery was called in my a general type figure who guessed that after capturing the point the enemy would most likely head in that direction.

Thoughts??

[SHoGUN]

As for the pre-round battle plan idea, it may work if it is kept extremely brief. A minute at most. This'd allow people to enjoy the drill camp and the officers to really lay down a quick and dirty plan for the field. Too long and the rank and file will feel like how it is to actually be in the military... Hurry up and wait.The battle map idea wasn't intended to be created while in a public server while players wait... rather just in a single player mode for the General to learn the craft, then create and edit whenever. Therefore there would be no need for players to wait for the General to set up. All the planning is required to been done before the General gets on to the server, and only those who have completed a battle plan for the current map can opt to become the General, if that makes sense. So when voting for your General, you will already be able to see what number of specific units he has planned, and have a better idea on what kind of General you want to vote for. E.g. one who prefers heavy Artillery or prefers to only have infantry and no other unit. So in a way the choice of what kind of spawns will be available goes to the majority of players. The General may adjust unit positions/individual unit orders/reinforcement times slightly before the players reach his camp, but all the units available to be spawned will be ready to go.

[R21]

Just a thought from the main video.

I belive a General idea may already be implemented;

After the union company captures the hill point after the firefight with the Confederates on the high ground they are targeted moving forwards of the just captured point.... and potentially all killed by she'll burst artillery fire.

I here by say that this artillery was called in my a general type figure who guessed that after capturing the point the enemy would most likely head in that direction.

Thoughts??


I've also been thinking about this (indirect fire) and how it'd be implemented:

http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/battlefield/images/a/a3/Artillery7be.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20100418040941

the situation you describe would happen in BF2 (Artillery called on or near objective as it was being taken) and i'm wondering how it'll be done in WOR (like will player controlled Cannons need to actually be directed and fire or will it just be automated). Like in Project reality mod for BF2 you have both:

Automated:

https://youtu.be/noVna1mcl5U?t=41

Manual:

https://youtu.be/GgK3igG34QA?t=176

[SemajRednaxela]

I really think that could be it.

If you follow the video the first shell impacts at around 4:10-15

You can clearly see the further round is fired from about 2 o'clock that the company is moving towards due to the small visible trailing arc of fire from the first round.

This coupled with the far that as the company captures the point, there is nothing visible in that direction. Just the field and barn on slightly higher ground.

So I still hold that this could only have been called in 'indirectly' by a superior all seeing general type figure.

Unless the Devs go one step further and implement some kind of 'UAV/Scout' system.....??

Say using other FPS style games a recon perk could be called in depending on time or points etc. But instead of a drone/ plane etc he calls in an AI Scout cav. That can still be shot and killed like a drone is shot down. They can passively Scout the terrain for officers or the general to see on a map.

Anyway. Maybe thinking or over thinking too much

[SHoGUN]

I really think that could be it.

If you follow the video the first shell impacts at around 4:10-15

You can clearly see the further round is fired from about 2 o'clock that the company is moving towards due to the small visible trailing arc of fire from the first round.

This coupled with the far that as the company captures the point, there is nothing visible in that direction. Just the field and barn on slightly higher ground.

So I still hold that this could only have been called in 'indirectly' by a superior all seeing general type figure.

Unless the Devs go one step further and implement some kind of 'UAV/Scout' system.....??

Say using other FPS style games a recon perk could be called in depending on time or points etc. But instead of a drone/ plane etc he calls in an AI Scout cav. That can still be shot and killed like a drone is shot down. They can passively Scout the terrain for officers or the general to see on a map.

Anyway. Maybe thinking or over thinking too muchI'm almost certain (but would need clarification from one of the devs) that this artillery was fired from a human manned cannon positioned to their far right that spotted them crossing the clearing. I think that sending out a kind of AI artillery barrage or any other system that sends data to or from either the General, or the Officers without any communication between regiments really breaks immersion from the game a bit. Now one thing that could be the case (if they bring in cavalry), is the General could have been positioned near a artillery battery with an artillery regiment at hand, and had rode over a mound to scout just out of line-of-sight but in a perfect trajectory for the cannon, and signal back to the artillery to fire. I don't think it was indirect fire (assuming that indirect fire means that it comes from out of the map, or a cannon that is not controlled by human players, and I do hope they stay away from that due to breaking immersion with the realism they are going for.

It'd be a really good idea in WW2 games and later, as the use of radio communication can be justified, but in this time in history, communication is that much more limiting and therefore, much more important. I believe that limiting communication from players, including the General can open up new unique situations, where it would encourage units to follow their Generals orders, or perhaps risk becoming a target from their own artillery, for example. Other situations could be from a General who is at a distance observing his infantry through his spyglass (if this is in the game) walking right into an ambush, and not be able to do anything other than ride to another Units Officer and order them to reinforce that position on map. It's a harsher option than just typing in team chat for them to stop and go around, but it'd be harsh situations like that which would make the game very fun for those who sprung the trap.

The recon perk is kind of the same here. It has its place in more modern settings (with games going for fast-paced gameplay over realism in particular), but the devs have announced that there will be no form of AI in game, and more importantly I still believe it breaks realism and therefore immersion by someone being able to ride around, look at a unit, and then somehow relay that information back to the whole team or the General. Immersion is a term I probably overuse, but is just soo important in a game like WoR. Good ideas though as they could be expanded on or spark up a different idea that no one had thought of :)

[A. P. Hill]

Don't you guys know there is a 150 foot tall tower on the Antietam Battlefield ... all confederate artillery is directed from that tower. :)

[SHoGUN]

Don't you guys know there is a 150 foot tall tower on the Antietam Battlefield ... all confederate artillery is directed from that tower. :)
Directed how? You mean aim down spyglass and click to mark target, and automatic barrage happens? Or do you mean scouted, and voiced back to a player based artillery unit for them to manually fire?

[FirstDiv2Corps]

Directed how? You mean aim down spyglass and click to mark target, and automatic barrage happens? Or do you mean scouted, and voiced back to a player based artillery unit for them to manually fire?

It was a joke. :cool:

There is an actual observation tower on the battlefield. Obviously not there during the fighting, it's located at the Bloody Lane.

2120

[SHoGUN]

It was a joke. :cool:

There is an actual observation tower on the battlefield. Obviously not there during the fighting, it's located at the Bloody Lane.

2120Opps, over my head :p I could understand it being a really good scout tower for the General

[A. P. Hill]

Directed how? You mean aim down spyglass and click to mark target, and automatic barrage happens? Or do you mean scouted, and voiced back to a player based artillery unit for them to manually fire?


Yeah, It was meant in jest! ;)

However, that said artillery will eventually be very visible on the field, AND it WILL BE GRAND!!!

[Gandalf]

However, that said artillery will eventually be very visible on the field, AND it WILL BE GRAND!!!
Can't wait to see how it turns out! I'm interested in seeing how artillery will work in WoR. :D

[Challis89]

I would like to think their will be multiple generals below the main general and who gets that role I've no suggestion. With the eventual creation of divsion sized formations I would expect they answer to the Corp commander and the div generals then pass on the instructions down the line. I know messangers have been ruled out but there will need to be staff officers to.guard a general and be his eyes and ears. To that effect 200 per side minimum is a must.

I've not read all the posts so sorry I'd I'm.repeating old ground but the corps general could mark.on his map where he wants to go then the invisible messangers transfer those orders to the div generals etc. Also a staff officer could be at the same time marking rough locations of the enemy and friendly troops so.it would on be as accurate as the information passed up the line.

One general can't fine tune the whole battle total war style given your working with players not bots.

[Bravescot]

200 people as staff is way over the mark. That might as well be a full server!

[Challis89]

200 people as staff is way over the mark. That might as well be a full server!

Ha ha you know what I meant

[R21]

I've not read all the posts so sorry I'd I'm.repeating old ground but the corps general could mark.on his map where he wants to go then the invisible messangers transfer those orders to the div generals etc. Also a staff officer could be at the same time marking rough locations of the enemy and friendly troops so.it would on be as accurate as the information passed up the line.



That could actually be a Practical way of doing Messengers (like they're not actually a physical Player) the Commander just selects the Unit he wants to message and then a Timer comes up telling him how long the Message will take to be delivered (like it'd be dependent on how far away that Unit was from the Commander, the Armies Morale and Ticket count).

But even then I get the feeling that it'd be bypassed with 3rd party Voice programs so added bonuses like Morale Boosts or the Orders letting the Commander of the messaged Unit call in Another Unit would make it worth-while.

[Challis89]

That could actually be a Practical way of doing Messengers (like they're not actually a physical Player) the Commander just selects the Unit he wants to message and then a Timer comes up telling him how long the Message will take to be delivered (like it'd be dependent on how far away that Unit was from the Commander, the Armies Morale and Ticket count).

But even then I get the feeling that it'd be bypassed with 3rd party Voice programs so added bonuses like Morale Boosts or the Orders letting the Commander of the messaged Unit call in Another Unit would make it worth-while.

I love the sound of a delay to simulate distance and when I wrote that I was thinking of other chat channels I think they will be inevitable which is why I think the lesser generals maps are a good idea.

[A. P. Hill]

http://warofrights.com/KickstarterUpdate5.aspx#navigationContainer

[SemajRednaxela]

http://warofrights.com/KickstarterUpdate5.aspx#navigationContainer

Well that nicely settles it.

And potentially settles other discussions too on other threads.

[Challis89]

http://warofrights.com/KickstarterUpdate5.aspx#navigationContainer

Ooh thank you good read. What's not mentioned is about brigade and divisional leaders that you say can be created at some point so how will they fit in?

[Challis89]

Unknown multiple thread please delete.

[A. P. Hill]

Ooh thank you good read. What's not mentioned is about brigade and divisional leaders that you say can be created at some point so how will they fit in?

Most likely in the same fashion as the corps commanders and the regimental commanders .... dependent on overall chain of command. In other words, IF you don't have enough guys on the field for a corps, then the lesser grade general (Brigadier Gen'l or Major Gen'l, per your comment respectively,) fills in with the same capabilities as the corps general. Seeing the same things on his map as the corps general would and then proceeding from there.

So the command structure will function the same as it would have functioned in 1862. Ranking general directs sub generals who direct sub generals who direct colonels, who direct captains who direct sergeants and corporals.

[SHoGUN]

http://warofrights.com/KickstarterUpdate5.aspx#navigationContainer

Much happiness here :D

Can't wait to see it in action! Now, I wonder how each team will pick their General? Will there be a voting system I wonder :P

[bookcollector]

I would suggest a field map which can be mini in a corner or brought up by the M key. Each regiment playing in the map is assigned a color which shows up on the map
on both sides. As well as a directional system like your location on the map and shows you and your company moving closer to the positions of the opposing side which are color coded dots. This would assist companies with firing in the general direction of the opposing forces since you really cant see what your aiming at sometimes. As your company moves in the general direction of the opposing forces the dots blink of you are aiming directly at an opposing force ememy. Many games implement in game directional systems and situation maps showing opposing force location and this would benefit both sides with the open terrain.

[Mark L. E. E. Smith]

Nice effort concerning retro opinions.