What is with the Obcession with the American Civil War outside of the US

[DomDowg]

Please I would love to know why.

[Rithal]

Please I would love to know why.

Well I'm not a non-American, but I would say it probably has something to do with the heavy romanticizing of the war in and outside of the U.S across all medias. Something about it just attracts those who are interested in war no matter where they are from. It could be the circumstances under which many fought, or it could be the style of fighting but there is definitely something about it that draws everyone's eye; much like the Napoleonic Wars in a sense.

[thomas aagaard]

I usually blame TV for running North and South many years ago...

[Soulfly]

i am fascinated from the bloody battles, the way those were fought and lots of "what if" scenarios

[BloodBeag]

It isn't really. Most popular wars are the two world wars in the UK. After that probably the cold war

[FakeMessiah27]

Perhaps it's because it's one of the last wars that was still fought in the ''old style''. Two armies meeting on a battlefield and duking it out. That concept, of the two armies facing off against each other has been heavily romanticised as well. Combine that with other factors, such as that it might be (I'm not sure about this) the first big war that featured photography and such, good documentation, etc.

[Hinkel]

I usually blame TV for running North and South many years ago...

Hell yeah.. watched it in 1990 or so and I became more and more interested in the war.
Then, I got my first amiga 500 computer and played the game "North and South" all the time :D

[SemajRednaxela]

Not sure if we here in the UK we would consider ourselves 'obsessed'.

It is covered by some syllabus at some schools but it'd not primary history to be taught.

With regards to American Civil war Reenactments it'll have something to do with the cost of reencating it. It's very cheap to get a uniform and a rifle over here, and probaly the same in europe and the states. Naturally in the UK the English Civil War is more popular on the field. I'd say followed closely by WW2 then maybe dark ages.

[Leifr]

I'd be more interested to know how popular the English Civil War is over in the United States. :p

[Soulfly]

I'd be more interested to know how popular the English Civil War is over in the United States. :p

you had a civil war ?

just kidding, i can tell you that the war of the roses is not even mentioned in German schools...at least during my time.

[FirstDiv2Corps]

I'd be more interested to know how popular the English Civil War is over in the United States. :p

Haha, nil. Good luck striking up a conversation about Naseby or the political decisions of Cromwell.

[David Dire]

Yeah, the English civil war basically never happened according to American schools :P

[Brooklyn]

I'd be more interested to know how popular the English Civil War is over in the United States. :p

Yeah, through all my basic education (k-12), I remember learning about the English Civil War once.

[zerosius]

As a german i find the underlying romanticism of fighting for freedom very interesting, even though the topic of freeing the slaves only became the primary Focus of the war later on. The Immigration to the US of many Germans after the failed Revolution of 1848/49 and them fighting on (mostly) the Unions side is a very interesting aspect for me personally. Though in Germany, although we have a good school system per say, not once was the topic of the US Civil War brought up in my curriculum.

[arpbarker]

its definately the romantisicm of the American Civil War that does it for me. What I love about the US military in a lot of the larger scale conflicts is the individual soldiers need to express themselves, take Vietnam and Helmet graffiti etc. Its something that is lost in armies.

I think the time period was interesting, civil wars themselves promote discussion due to the 'neighbour killing neighbour' thing, even if you talk about the troubles in N.I it has the same feeling.

[Maximus Decimus Meridius]

As a german i find the underlying romanticism of fighting for freedom very interesting, even though the topic of freeing the slaves only became the primary Focus of the war later on. The Immigration to the US of many Germans after the failed Revolution of 1848/49 and them fighting on (mostly) the Unions side is a very interesting aspect for me personally. Though in Germany, although we have a good school system per say, not once was the topic of the US Civil War brought up in my curriculum.

We talked about the war of independence in our english lessons. Only in the aspect of the election system we talked shortly about the civil war.

The revolution of 1848/49 is a very important topic. You can see a big influence of their ideas in our constitution.

About the English civil war

Only Europa Universalis 4 teached me about it ;)

In Germany you talk a lot about the 2 World Wars and their connections.

[Jonny Powers]

I think a lot of interest in conflicts that one's native country has little to no involvement in spurs an interest simply due to the unknown factor, at least among those inclined to be interested in history (as I assume most people here are). I know in my public schooling, and it seems to be that way across the globe from the posts here, national education focuses primarily on just that, how it relates to the nation. It's only in subjects touching other areas, such as foreign languages and world history courses, that it goes outside of the perspective of history in relation to the native country.

Pop culture and entertainment mediums are probably the biggest impetus for exploring other periods of history. I know myself I didn't really care at all about the Civil War, and American history as well to an extent, and found it boring until I got into North and South and Guns of the South. Funnily enough, a lot of my interest in regular history came from my fascination with alternate history; the 1632 series, Turtledove's work, etc. :rolleyes:

[BloodBeag]

Was that a joke to the guy that said the wars of the roses to mean the english civil war? The english civil war is one of the wars that shaped Britain in a similar way to the thirty years war in Europe and you could go ahead and say that the english civil war was part of the thirty years war

[Maximus Decimus Meridius]

So it proves his statement xD

[Celt]

First off, there isn't an obsession with the American Civil war outside of America. In fact it's one of the lesser known historical events to most people worldwide.

Secondly, personally I like the era because it's the last major era of conflict before modern warfare. Once you go past the ACW, you're getting in to WWI conflict, which was fought totally different. Gone are the uniforms based on colours, you're moving into camouflage. WW1 also saw military units not be so focused on all the men coming from one area. Gone are the line tactics, into the trenches they go.

Civil war military is interesting to me because, especially on the Southern side, all the units and commanders so are tied to their regions. Robert E. Lee was a Virginian through and though, as was Beauregard was a Louisianan. Wheat's Tigers, in their roster, told the story of New Orleans' working class. The Kansas Troops, packed with Germans, told the story of Kansas. There was so much character and personality to each commander and each unit.

WWI is more about the inhumanity of the war; how suddenly now war was almost industrial in it's brutality. It was no longer about dashing charges and bravery, it was about running into a meat blender to die for 500 metres of land. WW2 then had a lot of characters and personality, but the tactics and vibe are totally different.

The ACW is the last major war where fighting under a flag literally meant fighting under a flag. The ACW was the last major war where you could the whites in the enemies' eyes. The ACW was the last major war where hand to hand combat was a significant part of the fight.

It's also the only real out and out war fought on American soil. War of Independent was a bit more guerilla in nature, America-Mexico was all in Mexico, and the war of 1812 was more of a series of skirmishes and fort capturing. Individual states sent as many men into battles in the ACW as participated in the entire war of 1812.

The ACW was unique in many aspects.

[Zoranny]

I can't talk for all germans, 'cause of federalism, but where I live in school there was not a single lesson 'bout the ACW. Thats leads to the point, that only a few know more facts than that "yes there was a war".
Middle age, french revolution, WW1, WW2, cold war are the main things you'll learn in school. And as Maximus Decimus Meridius said, WW2 huge topic, in class 8, 10,11/12.

Probably via Video Games, persons I met in games, wikipedia and basic research I got most of my information and fascination about it. :O

[A. P. Hill]

I'm an American and I know what the OBSESSION of the ACW is for me .... that said, and having read any number of posts throughout this forums, I would say it is probably because the ACW was the last of the great Napoleonic style of battles, and the first of modern warfare with regard to weaponry.

[Bravescot]

and the first of modern warfare with regard to weaponry.

I think that spot would be held strongly by The Crimean War of October 1853 – February 1856

[A. P. Hill]

I think that spot would be held strongly by The Crimean War of October 1853 – February 1856

I don't personally know enough about that conflict to give you a reasonable discussion ... but I'd have to question the availability of rifling in both muskets and cannon during that time. That is what would make it "modern equipment" war.

[Bravescot]

I don't personally know enough about that conflict to give you an argument ... but I'd have to question the availability of rifling in both muskets and cannon during that time. That is what would make it "modern equipment" war.

I know enough to say quite firmly that the Crimean War saw both sides have ample availability to rifling in muskets but I will give the ACW the edge in cannons as the Russians and little to no rifled field guns.

[ThePatriot98]

Sir, this Nation was formed by people from different countries/continents. I think it is understandable, that many people has relatives in the USA, even if not alive, like their great grandparents or so, making them interested in the war. Other than that, I guess people interested in this era, but the country gotta be like one of the most famous country, since there was so many other wars in the 19th century, yet the Civil War is worldwide really famous.

[Henronicus]

First off, there isn't an obsession with the American Civil war outside of America. In fact it's one of the lesser known historical events to most people worldwide.

Secondly, personally I like the era because it's the last major era of conflict before modern warfare. Once you go past the ACW, you're getting in to WWI conflict, which was fought totally different. Gone are the uniforms based on colours, you're moving into camouflage. WW1 also saw military units not be so focused on all the men coming from one area. Gone are the line tactics, into the trenches they go.

Civil war military is interesting to me because, especially on the Southern side, all the units and commanders so are tied to their regions. Robert E. Lee was a Virginian through and though, as was Beauregard was a Louisianan. Wheat's Tigers, in their roster, told the story of New Orleans' working class. The Kansas Troops, packed with Germans, told the story of Kansas. There was so much character and personality to each commander and each unit.

WWI is more about the inhumanity of the war; how suddenly now war was almost industrial in it's brutality. It was no longer about dashing charges and bravery, it was about running into a meat blender to die for 500 metres of land. WW2 then had a lot of characters and personality, but the tactics and vibe are totally different.

The ACW is the last major war where fighting under a flag literally meant fighting under a flag. The ACW was the last major war where you could the whites in the enemies' eyes. The ACW was the last major war where hand to hand combat was a significant part of the fight.

It's also the only real out and out war fought on American soil. War of Independent was a bit more guerilla in nature, America-Mexico was all in Mexico, and the war of 1812 was more of a series of skirmishes and fort capturing. Individual states sent as many men into battles in the ACW as participated in the entire war of 1812.

The ACW was unique in many aspects.

100% agree.

[Sgt.Kar98]

First FPS I know to cover a 19th century war in a very realistic way.

Also,getting tired of more 1944-Western Front-WW2 games.

[DomDowg]

I'd be more interested to know how popular the English Civil War is over in the United States. :p

Not popular

[Landree]

As a Southerner, the war and Yankee "Reconstruction" is a huge part of our history. While reenacting the battles is god-awful dog and pony shows compared to how things should be, it feels good to be under my cultural flag and reliving such a tense and proud moment in our history.

[Johnnyboy]

Germans can you answer this question. But apparently Wolfenstein is banned in Germany is that true? oh and about history, well this is difficult because in Australia; we mainly do Aboriginal History (this was from year 7 to 10 so can't really remember much from year 7 to 9). And to be honest, it's boring as shit. We don't learn anything about the American Civil War, English Civil War. We do learn about the First World War and the aftermath of it, along with the "Rise" of the Nazi Party in Germany and then straight to the Second World War and Australia's Involvement. After that, it skips the Korean War and goes into the Vietnam War. Then the Aboriginal struggle to have rights and stuff during the mid 70's to the 90's and then you got the Reconciliation of 2008 to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders by Australia's Prime Minister, Kevin Rudd.

[thomas aagaard]

The ACW is the last major war where fighting under a flag literally meant fighting under a flag. The ACW was the last major war where you could the whites in the enemies' eyes. The ACW was the last major war where hand to hand combat was a significant part of the fight. .

2nd sleswig war in 1864,
The 1866 war between prussia and austria,
The fanco prussian war in 1870-71
All had close ordered formations and the use of regimental colors...
Russo-Turkish War (1877–78)?
Painting of a battle during the war.
2216
I think you can find it done in 1914 also... and during the Russian revolution... and properly also Russian flags used during wwii.


And in regard to hand to hand combat... trenchwarefare during WWI...


About the idea of "modern war"

Rifle muskets was used in 1848-50 in limited numbers. during the 1st Slesvig war.(at the end of the war about 20% of danish infantry used it)
The British and French had them in wide use during the Crimean war.(3 of 4 British divisions had them when they left england... the rest got them during the war)
Both sides used them as the standard small arm in Italy in 1859.

In the early part of the civil war smoothbores was in wide use. We need to go to at least 1863 before the rifle musket was the norm.
(many union regiments replaced smoothbores with enfields when they captures Vicksburg)

In 1864 during the 2nd Sleswig war the prussian infantry and cavalry all used breachloaded rifles. The danes and Austrians used rifle muskets.
(all Prussian infantry had been armed with it since about 1860)
In 1866 the the Prussians and Austrians had the same,
In 1871 both the french and prussians used breachloaded rifles.

I don't know when rifled artillery was first used.
The civil war saw good use of rifled guns and smoothbore guns.
The same was the case in the 2nd sleswig war.
1866 had mostly rifled guns. (can't rule out some smoothbores)
1870-71 rifled guns

When do a war become modern?

But all where fought with black powder... rather old technology... wouldn't it be more relevant to find the first war where both sides used rifles firing smokeless cartriges?

Also the rifle musket was actually oboserleet from the day it was invented, since the prussian breach loading needle gun was already in use by the Prussians.
(even with its limitation it was still a lot better as we can see in the 1866 war)

I think it is hard to properly define "modern war" and that makes it hard to figure out what war was the first modern war... and this is just with looking at the weapons.
If we include military planing, tactics, strategy, the effect on civilian population it gets a lot harder.

I have a hard time agreeing that the civil war was the first modern war, since most of the elements that makes it modern can be found in other earlier wars... but on the other hand I have a hard time deciding on what other war would be the first... if not the civil war.

One thing the civil war did have as a "first"... ironclad on ironclad sea battles...

[Maximus Decimus Meridius]

Germans can you answer this question. But apparently Wolfenstein is banned in Germany is that true?

No its not banned but every single Hakenkreuz / swastika have to be replaced. The german law ban every symbol and every other stuff which glorify the Nazis or their actions.

But pls correct me my brothers because i havent played it yet. It could be possible that 1 game is banned but i dont think so.

[BloodBeag]

Yes i saw a video comparing the German version to the normal version and all the swastikas are wolfenstein symbols.

[Jonny Powers]

I believe when he is referring to Wolfenstein he means Wolfenstein 3D from 1992. This ban still carries through to today; I had thought it would have been lifted by now ( http://ftp.3drealms.com/wolf3d/index.html ). Wolf 3D was released as a browser game on its 20th annversary, which you can play here, unless you're in Germany: http://3d.wolfenstein.com/
Wolfenstein: The New Order, the reboot/sequel to Wolf 3D, is the one with all the Nazi imagery changed/removed, as is evidenced here: http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-27488254

[Bravescot]

Going off topic with this here gents, bring it back.

[PGT Beauregard]

Fascinating topic. I never really thought of overseas interest in our Civil War as an obsession for anyone. The period is very interesting on so many levels and of course the weaponry. I was blessed to be educated in a parish that gave a well rounded education in history. American and European history received the same amount of attention and time. So much so that it almost became boring and tedious until I finally recognized the value of it. European history is really an extension of American history. There would be no America without Europe. The American Civil War was fought by many thousands of men who were still very European and not very long removed from their homeland. In Louisiana we had whole companies that did not even speak English yet and many units where several languages were spoken. Gen. Beauregard even had to invent a new cuss word, Sacre Damn, to better get his soldiers on the same page of music ;) An army that can cuss together damn well can fight together. I was once in a pub and was approached by a very intoxicated British SAS type that clearly wanted to start a fight with a US Marine. He tried every insult in the book and became increasingly frustrated that he could not get a rise out of me. He finally resorted to implying that Americans were ignorant of their own and European history becoming very loud in the process. The very large Sikh bouncer at the door started to come over, but I motioned to him that everything was okay. So the SAS trooper barraged me with dozens of history questions which I answered without hesitation and his frustration disappeared. It was then that I fully recognized the value of having a well rounded education in history. The trooper and me drank together the rest of the night and had a helluva time even though I couldn't keep up with his knowledge of British pub songs;)

[Mi'kmaq]

I'd be more interested to know how popular the English Civil War is over in the United States. :p

Well considering it's an essential part of our history as well, you'd think it be more popular, but it really isn't.

[Legion]

Well considering it's an essential part of our history as well, you'd think it be more popular, but it really isn't.

How is it part of our history? just wondering

[Mi'kmaq]

How is it part of our history? just wondering

The war resulted in more and more Puritans settling in the colonies. They believed in religious freedom and separation of church and state. These ideas became apart the very foundation of our republic.

You could say the English Civil War was the proto-American Revolution. The same folks who had fought against the tyranny of the king over in England settled down in the colonies and brought with them their ideology.

[BloodBeag]

Well the proto-proto American independance would be the magna carta then as USians seem to love that and see it as some kind of Bill o' rights

[Legion]

well the Magna Carta was kinda like a Bill o' Rights for medieval England. And why say USians why not just say Americans?

[Bravescot]

Final warning to bring it back on topic.

[Mi'kmaq]

Better get back on topic before Bravescot has a cow. Anyways, I really dont get the European obsession with our Civil War. Lolol

[BloodBeag]

I think the Europeans for the most part haven't had a war like the USian civil war so it's different to all the nationalist and sorta religious wars that happened in Europe. But the war didn't really affect Europe majorly (maybe I'm sorta guessing) so it probably isn't even in the top 10 most popular wars in Europe

[Maximus Decimus Meridius]

I think these 10 wars would be:

WWII & I ; Napoleonic Wars (Include the revolution); Cold War, 30 years war; Franco- Prussian War; The 100 years war (Right expression?); US Independence War; The last to i must gues: Frederick the great and the 2 Silesia wars; And the last one i would choose between the ottoman invasion and really generally the roman empire;


I think why the civil war is not on the list is that it hadn't a influence on Europe (Like what happen in 'murica, stay in 'murica :p )

[Bravescot]

US Independence War

You'd be amazed how little the UK cares about this war at all. Like sure we lost the war and America was born but nobody gives a damn anymore it's actually quite funny. You'll have the Americans in the UK trying to party and most Brits will be like "Shut up it's a working day!"

[BloodBeag]

I think the USian war of independence (i'm going to keep saying USian but not looking for reaction) is the kind of war where the US love it and ignore the fact that they outnumbered the British soldiers I think by 3 to 1 at the least and more by the end and the fact that the British peace treaty was given to them by the French navy. But then the British don't care because if they did, the US would never let them forget about it

[A. P. Hill]

You'd be amazed how little the UK cares about this war at all. Like sure we lost the war and America was born but nobody gives a damn anymore it's actually quite funny. You'll have the Americans in the UK trying to party and most Brits will be like "Shut up it's a working day!"

In answering this, there are quite a number of reenactment groups (here,) who do the war for American independence. Maybe it's lost to you British and a selection of Hessian mercenaries, but I suspect that the reason for it fading in the UK may be due to a lack of actual battlefields. I say that based on my perception of the UK's interests in conflicts older than the 1770s war in North America, and battlefields being preserved and reenacting of them.

[Maximus Decimus Meridius]

You'd be amazed how little the UK cares about this war at all. Like sure we lost the war and America was born but nobody gives a damn anymore it's actually quite funny. You'll have the Americans in the UK trying to party and most Brits will be like "Shut up it's a working day!"

but it's a big reason for the French revolution and so for napoleon and so for the revolution 1848/49 so for Franco Prussian war and so for WW I and.... the rest u know

that's how we look at a lot wars. how they are connected