Barrel Cleaning for Rifles

[The Emerald Archer]

I was wondering if you were going to implement the fact that blackpowder (muzzleloader primarily) rifles' barrels get a lot of residue in the rifling that degrade the accuracy after so many shots. I think that if you implemented this, where the ramrod would bve used as a cleaning rod to get the residue out and achieve maximum accuracy potential again, it would help keep sharpshooter units from being too good. Say for every 10 shots or so the accuracy would be lowered until at about 30 or 40 it gets almost like a normal smoothbore musket. Now obviously, the normal soldiers would not need to do this all of the time since they're firing at big lines but the sharpshooters would need to keep their bore clean to continue their sniping duties effectively.

Personally I think the realism factor would be that much higher and would also serve as a good balance considering a good, well positioned sharpshooter unit would be able to wipe out a whole regiment if they don't miss and stay out of the enemy's range

[[RG]Chewie]

There was such a thing called a cleaner bullet that was designed to scrape out the barrel fouling as it was shot. I don't know if it was used widely but I have seen originals.

[[RG]Chewie]

Oh and accuracy isn't the only thing that was affected. There are plenty of stories of soldiers getting their ramrod stuck in the fouling or having to bash the end of the rod with a rock or up against a tree to even load the rifle. Fouling could and has rendered many of rifles useless on the field.

[The Emerald Archer]

Chewie;4265']Oh and accuracy isn't the only thing that was affected. There are plenty of stories of soldiers getting their ramrod stuck in the fouling or having to bash the end of the rod with a rock or up against a tree to even load the rifle. Fouling could and has rendered many of rifles useless on the field.

I knew about this, but I thought it wouldn't work well in game, but now that I think of it, it'd be hilarious. Better pull out your melee or just use that bayonet hehe

Say you literally fired a good 70 times without any sort of cleaning (with different weapons having different reliability stats for this fouling mechanic, rifles fouling quicker, smoothbores being the most reliable with rifle-muskets as an inbetween) your gun would just be out of commission. I think it'd be a good idea as long as the barrel cleaning mechanic was used

[Hinkel]

I knew about this, but I thought it wouldn't work well in game, but now that I think of it, it'd be hilarious. Better pull out your melee or just use that bayonet hehe

Say you literally fired a good 70 times without any sort of cleaning (with different weapons having different reliability stats for this fouling mechanic, rifles fouling quicker, smoothbores being the most reliable with rifle-muskets as an inbetween) your gun would just be out of commission. I think it'd be a good idea as long as the barrel cleaning mechanic was used

Well, the idea is nice indeed.
But those cleaning was mostly done out of a battle. I don't think that the 20th Maine at Gettysburg cleaned their rifles, when they got out of ammo :)

When the regiment is going into the battle, the guns are cleaned and ready for the fight. Those little extras are nice, to recreate camp life of course, but I don't think its needed yet, when we are doing a battle recreation :)
But who knows, what the future will bring.

[The Emerald Archer]

Well, the idea is nice indeed.
But those cleaning was mostly done out of a battle. I don't think that the 20th Maine at Gettysburg cleaned their rifles, when they got out of ammo :)

When the regiment is going into the battle, the guns are cleaned and ready for the fight. Those little extras are nice, to recreate camp life of course, but I don't think its needed yet, when we are doing a battle recreation :)
But who knows, what the future will bring.

Well we should at least be able to pick up fallen weapons should ours get fouled shut, if this were to be implemented at all

[Hinkel]

Well we should at least be able to pick up fallen weapons should ours get fouled shut, if this were to be implemented at all

The weapon pick up was very popular in the war, so I think there is no reason, why we shouldnt use that feature! :)
It also happened at Antietam, so I would love to see it!

[The Emerald Archer]

Hinkel, just curious here but seeing that you're a German, what makes you so interested in the american civil war? From what I understand most EU people think we're just a bunch of ignorant hillbillies. I'm not meaning this to offend or criticize in any way, I'm just curious

Did you move to Germany or were you born and raised there?

[GeorgeCrecy]

Without meaning to interrupt Emerald's question to Hinkel, I will interject quickly and mention that the cleaning bullet mentioned by Chewie is called the Williams Patent Type II bullet.
In January of 1861, Elijah Williams created the first William Patent "Wad for Ordinance," and was mainly meant for artillery. Field tests of the small arms bullet variant by none other than then Sgt. Major Hiram Berdan showed that the bullet was incredibly accurate, even more so than the regular Minie ball. The Federal Government contracted Williams to make 3 million pounds, or 21,000,000 bullets for use shortly afterward. Each packet of ten bullets issued also included an additional cartridge with the Williams bullet, and actually had a blue colored cartridge to differentiate it from the regular ones.
Then, in February of 1862, Williams came out with the Type II, which operated much the same as the first, but had a zinc plate and used hardened lead for the pin:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-aDq5Au3R7oI/UOcpt95ByzI/AAAAAAAAAEo/RubVZYHFOLI/s400/Type2drawing.JPG
In late August of 1862, the Government contracted 1 million to be made up for them. The tests done on this version is also the first mention of bore-cleaning abilities of the bullet. Over time, they upped the dispensation from 1 for each 10, to 3/10, on up to 6/10 by 1864, after the Type III had come into use. Unfortunately for the then dead Williams, the bullet proved disastrously dangerous, and would even hurt the rifling of the barrel from how easily they broke apart. Type III bullets in particular were quickly discontinued once the phenomenon was reported by officers from the Army of the Mississippi. The blue colored cartridge was easy to spot by the soldiers, and they would throw them away, in which it is still very easy to find huge troves of these bullets at old camp sites of the period or along old roadways.

As for the picking up of weapons, please keep in mind that each soldier was issued a weapon, and they would record the serial number of the weapon and who had it. The men were then held accountable for it when it came time to be discharged. I am not saying that weapon pick-ups would not be allowed - quite the opposite actually - merely making sure that is kept in mind.

P.S. Emerald Archer, I am not sure if you have much experience with black powder weapons, but that must be quite the weapon to get 70 shots without cleaning! I have trouble with a mere 10... ;)

[The Emerald Archer]

Without meaning to interrupt Emerald's question to Hinkel, I will interject quickly and mention that the cleaning bullet mentioned by Chewie is called the Williams Patent Type II bullet.
In January of 1861, Elijah Williams created the first William Patent "Wad for Ordinance," and was mainly meant for artillery. Field tests of the small arms bullet variant by none other than then Sgt. Major Hiram Berdan showed that the bullet was incredibly accurate, even more so than the regular Minie ball. The Federal Government contracted Williams to make 3 million pounds, or 21,000,000 bullets for use shortly afterward. Each packet of ten bullets issued also included an additional cartridge with the Williams bullet, and actually had a blue colored cartridge to differentiate it from the regular ones.
Then, in February of 1862, Williams came out with the Type II, which operated much the same as the first, but had a zinc plate and used hardened lead for the pin:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-aDq5Au3R7oI/UOcpt95ByzI/AAAAAAAAAEo/RubVZYHFOLI/s400/Type2drawing.JPG
In late August of 1862, the Government contracted 1 million to be made up for them. The tests done on this version is also the first mention of bore-cleaning abilities of the bullet. Over time, they upped the dispensation from 1 for each 10, to 3/10, on up to 6/10 by 1864, after the Type III had come into use. Unfortunately for the then dead Williams, the bullet proved disastrously dangerous, and would even hurt the rifling of the barrel from how easily they broke apart. Type III bullets in particular were quickly discontinued once the phenomenon was reported by officers from the Army of the Mississippi. The blue colored cartridge was easy to spot by the soldiers, and they would throw them away, in which it is still very easy to find huge troves of these bullets at old camp sites of the period or along old roadways.

As for the picking up of weapons, please keep in mind that each soldier was issued a weapon, and they would record the serial number of the weapon and who had it. The men were then held accountable for it when it came time to be discharged. I am not saying that weapon pick-ups would not be allowed - quite the opposite actually - merely making sure that is kept in mind.

P.S. Emerald Archer, I am not sure if you have much experience with black powder weapons, but that must be quite the weapon to get 70 shots without cleaning! I have trouble with a mere 10... ;)


I'm just talking in game. I'm sure people would like to shoot more than 10 times, ya know what I mean? I will say this though, I'm sure they found ways to shoot more than 10 times considering they carried like 80 rounds apiece. And of course that number (70) could be a lot lower I was just spitballing. In all honesty though, no I shoot modern firearms a lot more, and primitive weapons more than guns (bullets are too expensive nowadays, I make and shoot my own bows, blowguns, crossbows, slings, atlatls, the works)

[PvtPalmer11pvi]

I'm just talking in game. I'm sure people would like to shoot more than 10 times, ya know what I mean? I will say this though, I'm sure they found ways to shoot more than 10 times considering they carried like 80 rounds apiece. And of course that number (70) could be a lot lower I was just spitballing. In all honesty though, no I shoot modern firearms a lot more, and primitive weapons more than guns (bullets are too expensive nowadays, I make and shoot my own bows, blowguns, crossbows, slings, atlatls, the works)


80 rounds a piece? While I am not sure how accurate that is ( I know your just throwing an example out there) but I can fit about 55-60rds in my cartridge box tins. Powder fouling would indeed be a great addition to the realism of the game but unless you a entrenched in a strong defensive position I cant imagine a player firing that many rounds before he dies. What I would like to see is the fouling being bad enough that your gun will not go off and you have to re prime your rifle which can happen after only 10 rds. Anyone who is a reenactor has experienced this I'm sure.

[Bravescot]

Now this is where the great realism to fun ratio starts to come into effect and I'm going to have to refer to the Deluge mod for this. For Deluge, being set in the 1600s, they implemented the chance of the matchlock weapons miss firing. Now this is cool and all but during an organised battle event, where both sides, under the guidance of English civil war reenactors, use historically accurate formations like the Swedish salvo in game. A full line of 50 men all miss fired! Now this is funny and all but it was also very frustrating when the opposing line's volley dropped 13 men. For the rifles to become more and more inaccurate as you fired would be cool but it might also cause some anger for regiments who have been in the thick of of battle. They might come up against a line that has hardly fired a shot and get whipped out. The balance between realism and making an enjoyable game is a very fine line and I feel sorry for gavme devs who do have to tread that line as they make games like this. Too realistic and it might loose people for being too dull. Too unrealistic and people will flame for the lack of authenticity .

[Rithal]

I think of it like this. This game is based on realistic authenticity. It should be as realistic as possible. I think that the amount of realism would contribute to ever changing gameplay and new and exciting situations every battle. I'm not sure, but I think one of the devs said that this game is coming out whether people will play it or not. Don't quote me on that. Even if a dev didn't say this, its still a good rule to go by. War of Rights is unique and one of a kind. Whether it interests 100,000 or 100, it should definitely be released. So, I don't think people should worry about it being too realistic. You will either like it or you won't.

[GeorgeCrecy]

Oh woe betide us should only 100 people play this game! :cool: