Uniform and accoutrament tips

[spe801]

First of all, let me say that so far it is awesome how much effort you have put in to the way the soldiers in this game would look. However, there are a few things that I think could make it even better. This won't be very organized, it's just kind of rolling out of my head. Also, it's basically all Confederate because that's what I've really studied.

1. When wearing blanket rolls the top of the blanket would hang over the left shoulder instead of right. If it hung over the right shoulder you would have a thick blanket impeding your aiming. Also, there need to be variants of blankets. Confederates had all kinds of things they would use for blankets such as coverlets, carpet, homemade, captured, or basically anything they could get their hands on. Also, it wouldn't hurt for every few of them to have an oil/ground cloth wrapped over their blankets.

2. The Confederates were very well noted as being particularly ragged and filthy during the Sharpsburg Campaign. What I'm saying is dirty them up/some holes in the shoes/fray their clothing/maybe some small holes/tears (I'm not saying give a few just loin cloths). I know the military stresses cleanliness but that's hard to do when you're marching about 20 miles a day, wiping grease on your pants, spilling stuff on your shirt or jacket, or always having your knees and elbows on the ground getting dirty when resting. Also, if any of you have been to reenactments, they did not sleep in tents while on campaign, all they had was what was on their backs.

3. It seems that everyone has the same canteen and haversack. There were several different types of canteens and haversacks that the Confederates used. I know it may be too much work but it would be very cool.

4. Maybe let the Confederates have some Federal gear captured from 2nd Mannassas? I'm not saying the cliche wearing captured federal jackets and pants (bowels release after death and I'd rather not take those pants off a dead man). I'm saying maybe federal canteens, shoes, haversacks. An extra special touch would be having the name of a Federal regiment painted on the back of the haversack, maybe one that took really heavy casualties at 2nd Mannassas?

5. I really like the 3 differing types of jackets that you use for the Confederates. An extra special touch would be to maybe add in civilian jackets and pants.

6. And finally, hats. If you look at pictures of Confederates in the field their hats are absolute junk. They may be issued a nice new hat, but once they get it they shape it to how they want it. After they get it shaped it gets rained on, dirtied, greasy, and the results can be pretty interesting

Thanks for reading if you did and sorry if I rambled or didn't make sense, I don't have class tomorrow so I'm enjoying some O-Be-Joyful.

[Rithal]

1. I agree. The blankets should be switched around according to what hand your character uses to aim.

More blanket varieties will probably be added.

2. I agree with this also. Allow for many ways to change holes and fray in the uniforms. Grass and mud stains as well.

3. More variations will probably be added.

4. I like this idea. Leave multiple options for people to customize their characters. Different canteens, normal shoes, worn out shoes, union shoes or even no shoes. Things like this really
add to the detail.

5. Civilian clothing options would be cool. Especially different kinds of headgear.

6. I also agree.

I really liked your ideas. I'm eager to see which ones the developers will implement if they haven't thought of them already! :D

[GeorgeCrecy]

Hey there spe801,

These are some great suggestions, and I am happy to say that many of them have already been considered. Again, we must always keep in mind that none of this is set in stone, and all of it is in the Alpha stages as of yet. We are going to be working on grime layers and all sorts of variation options as time goes by, which also includes most of what you mentioned above.
Again, some great suggestions. Keep them coming!

[Rithal]

Hey there spe801,

These are some great suggestions, and I am happy to say that many of them have already been considered. Again, we must always keep in mind that none of this is set in stone, and all of it is in the Alpha stages as of yet. We are going to be working on grime layers and all sorts of variation options as time goes by, which also includes most of what you mentioned above.
Again, some great suggestions. Keep them coming!

Its great to know how much you guys are thinking about and considering for this game.

[spe801]

Thank you very much for answering. I'm just glad to see that people actually care and don't want it to look like a 1960's western. I figured it was in alpha, I just wanted to make sure that they looked how they probably did that September day. I had a few more thoughts.

1. Do you plan on giving every Confederate an 1853 enfield and every Federal a '61 Springfield? This is a huge misconception because even at this point in the war I don't think that weapons were that uniformed. I know the "Irish Brigade" was famous for having those .69 caliber smoothbores with buck-and-ball, but I bet there were several other regiments who had different weapons than the two previously mentioned, especially your flanking companies who you wanted to have the best weapons available.

2. I'm curious about the planned wounding system. I feel like if an expanding bullet like what was used during the war was to hit somebody, it would take them out of the battle. Expanding bullets were made illegal by the Hague convention because of their destructive ability. When it hit bone it didn't break, it shattered. I just think that unless it's a complete flesh wound, you're taken out of the battle. There's a pretty interesting article that talks about being shot, I can link it if you'd like.

3. Will units be able to perform movements like wheels and obliques without the system's help? Or is it all on the training of the players?

[Rithal]

1. I'm sure the devs are on this already.

2. A wounding system like this has been mentioned.

3. From what I understand, everything is up to the players, including formations.

[spe801]

It's my bad for not reading more. I read the forums several months ago but haven't looked much since then. I'll make sure to adequately look before I post any more grievances. Ha!

[Aniallator]

Nice suggestions! As long as that much customization doesn't make things too graphics and performance instensive, I'm all for it.

[Bravescot]

The customization shouldn't be too much down to the player. If it were you'd have some very flamboyant uniforms running about the battlefield.

[spe801]

Definitely. I don't want to see some guy wearing bright red checkered trousers across the battlefield. The soldiers back then wouldn't wear something like that because it just makes you a really easy target. I'd hate to see some yankee looking like he walked right off the set of Gangs of New York.

[Tar Heel]

1. When wearing blanket rolls the top of the blanket would hang over the left shoulder instead of right. If it hung over the right shoulder you would have a thick blanket impeding your aiming.

Bumping this instead of making a new thread. The newer screenshots look great, but all the soldiers are still wearing their blanket rolls right to left, instead of left to right. If you don't believe spe801 (or me), roll up a blanket, wrap it around you hanging right to left, and then try and aim a rifle...

[Hinkel]

Bumping this instead of making a new thread. The newer screenshots look great, but all the soldiers are still wearing their blanket rolls right to left, instead of left to right. If you don't believe spe801 (or me), roll up a blanket, wrap it around you hanging right to left, and then try and aim a rifle...

Thank you,
this is something we will fix with some animation rework soon :)

[Gandalf]

wrap it around you hanging right to left, and then try and aim a rifle...
Seems like that would make it more difficult, yes.

Also a lot heavier on the one side, as can be seen in this article. (http://www.26nc.org/Articles/knapsack%20and%20blanket%20roll.pdf)

[Mississippi]

It would be awesome if you could get a Straw Hat!

[Tar Heel]

Thank you,
this is something we will fix with some animation rework soon :)

Noice! :cool:

[thomas aagaard]

Bumping this instead of making a new thread. The newer screenshots look great, but all the soldiers are still wearing their blanket rolls right to left, instead of left to right. If you don't believe spe801 (or me), roll up a blanket, wrap it around you hanging right to left, and then try and aim a rifle...

But on the other hand try fill you cartrigebox with live ammo. It gets rather heavy... then add the kg in your blanket roll. Get a very uneven destribution of weight. Rather unpleasant.

Edit: should remember to read the other replies before I write... the article Gandalf linked to cover it rather well.


1. I agree. The blankets should be switched around according to what hand your character uses to aim.

Rather old... but everyone was right handed back then. Not naturally, but in school children was forced to right with the right hand and the drill books makes no allowance for left handed men in the ranks. So adding the option of using the left would be extra work to add something that is not historical.

[CjkCJkCjk]

All of the Ideas are great! though as a reenactor I suggest not not wearing shoes during a reenactment. my friend learned that the hard way XD

[Tar Heel]

But on the other hand try fill you cartrigebox with live ammo. It gets rather heavy... then add the kg in your blanket roll. Get a very uneven destribution of weight. Rather unpleasant.
Interesting point on the weight. Maybe on a long march I'd be more inclined to agree with you, and maybe in those instances some soldiers slung their bedrolls right to left. But, a soldier's primary function is to fight, and having a thick blanket pushing the butt of the rifle farther out from the body throws off the average man's ability to properly hold and aim the rifle. Maybe there were some soldiers who didn't mind that or had really long arms, but I'm betting the majority of soldiers wore their rolls slung left to right when marching into battle.


Rather old... but everyone was right handed back then. Not naturally, but in school children was forced to right with the right hand and the drill books makes no allowance for left handed men in the ranks. So adding the option of using the left would be extra work to add something that is not historical.
Another thing to reinforce everyone being "right handed" is the fact that most weapons, unless privately purchased and custom made, were designed to be used right handed. Firing a Springfield or Enfield left handed would reward you with a face full of sparks from the percussion cap.

[Gandalf]

Firing a Springfield or Enfield left handed would reward you with a face full of sparks from the percussion cap.
Very true. Perhaps if left handed characters were to be implemented, it would make a difference in melee only, and firing a musket would remain the same.

[Maximus Decimus Meridius]

but it would be possible for officers. they wasn't forced to use the right hand and it's doesn't matter if your saber is in the right hand or left hand for melee or it would be more realistic because not everybody use the right hand

[thomas aagaard]

Interesting point on the weight. Maybe on a long march I'd be more inclined to agree with you, and maybe in those instances some soldiers slung their bedrolls right to left. But, a soldier's primary function is to fight, and having a thick blanket pushing the butt of the rifle farther out from the body throws off the average man's ability to properly hold and aim the rifle. Maybe there were some soldiers who didn't mind that or had really long arms, but I'm betting the majority of soldiers wore their rolls slung left to right when marching into battle.
I have no personal experience with doing live fire with a bedroll... guess I better try it the next time I get the chance to do some live fire.


But I think the problem would be similar to using a 7.62mm military rifle when wearing older types of body armor where the but of the rifle have to be on the armor.... and sure it takes a bit to get use to... but is possible, and a blanket (when you make sure that only the blanket it between the butt and your shoulder)

And with the marksmanship skills of the average soldier I don't think it would make much difference.

I agree that the primary job is to fight. But a acw soldier would usually know in advance when going into combat... so It would likely be possible to change it at some point before. (it was normal to "only" march 50minutes pr hour)

[Tar Heel]

I agree that the primary job is to fight. But a acw soldier would usually know in advance when going into combat... so It would likely be possible to change it at some point before. (it was normal to "only" march 50minutes pr hour)
I guess we can agree to disagree. Maybe the devs could make a version of the blankets for each shoulder so that players can choose the one they like.

[Maximus Decimus Meridius]

That would be great. I love the idea that you can every detail on your character :D

[LukeYoung]

The customization shouldn't be too much down to the player. If it were you'd have some very flamboyant uniforms running about the battlefield.

You are a true kinda fuck tard just so you know, it dont matter what the fuck you say or how much you think you know they grey JOHNNY REBEL you thinks of is a myth all that grey and orderly looking uniforms was gone after 61

[GeorgeCrecy]

You are a true kinda fuck tard just so you know, it dont matter what the fuck you say or how much you think you know they grey JOHNNY REBEL you thinks of is a myth all that grey and orderly looking uniforms was gone after 61

If you take a look again at what you quoted, that is in part what he is trying to get at. He is saying that we don't need the flamboyant uniforms that too-much customization would foster. I can also assure you however that we will have enough customization in place to allow the Northern and Southern ranks to not be like what was seen in 1861. On another note LukeYoung, I suggest toning down the aggressiveness of your wording. I do understand that you and many others might not have had a chance at looking at our rather new forum rules that you can find here (http://www.warofrightsforum.com/showthread.php?1047-Forum-Rules), but I do wish to stress that as of now they are going to start being enforced. But please, continue to comment on whatever you might see as being off, as we are always open to constructive criticism within the prescribed rules. But praise is always nice to have too! ;)

[thomas aagaard]

Hmm, someone who need to study his sources.

Sure during the "Sharpsburg campaign" they where ragged according to the sources... so that look would be relevant to the first version of this game.

But thanks to imported english wool that was run true the blockade... their uniform standard actually got better and by late summer 1864, Lee's army was no longer poorly uniformed.

http://military-historians.org/company/journal/confederate/confederate-1.htm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgBBGzOXAbA

[RhettVito]

First of all, let me say that so far it is awesome how much effort you have put in to the way the soldiers in this game would look. However, there are a few things that I think could make it even better. This won't be very organized, it's just kind of rolling out of my head. Also, it's basically all Confederate because that's what I've really studied.

1. When wearing blanket rolls the top of the blanket would hang over the left shoulder instead of right. If it hung over the right shoulder you would have a thick blanket impeding your aiming. Also, there need to be variants of blankets. Confederates had all kinds of things they would use for blankets such as coverlets, carpet, homemade, captured, or basically anything they could get their hands on. Also, it wouldn't hurt for every few of them to have an oil/ground cloth wrapped over their blankets.

2. The Confederates were very well noted as being particularly ragged and filthy during the Sharpsburg Campaign. What I'm saying is dirty them up/some holes in the shoes/fray their clothing/maybe some small holes/tears (I'm not saying give a few just loin cloths). I know the military stresses cleanliness but that's hard to do when you're marching about 20 miles a day, wiping grease on your pants, spilling stuff on your shirt or jacket, or always having your knees and elbows on the ground getting dirty when resting. Also, if any of you have been to reenactments, they did not sleep in tents while on campaign, all they had was what was on their backs.

3. It seems that everyone has the same canteen and haversack. There were several different types of canteens and haversacks that the Confederates used. I know it may be too much work but it would be very cool.

4. Maybe let the Confederates have some Federal gear captured from 2nd Mannassas? I'm not saying the cliche wearing captured federal jackets and pants (bowels release after death and I'd rather not take those pants off a dead man). I'm saying maybe federal canteens, shoes, haversacks. An extra special touch would be having the name of a Federal regiment painted on the back of the haversack, maybe one that took really heavy casualties at 2nd Mannassas?

5. I really like the 3 differing types of jackets that you use for the Confederates. An extra special touch would be to maybe add in civilian jackets and pants.

6. And finally, hats. If you look at pictures of Confederates in the field their hats are absolute junk. They may be issued a nice new hat, but once they get it they shape it to how they want it. After they get it shaped it gets rained on, dirtied, greasy, and the results can be pretty interesting

Thanks for reading if you did and sorry if I rambled or didn't make sense, I don't have class tomorrow so I'm enjoying some O-Be-Joyful.




This man knows what he is talking about thank you man if you have steam please add me Mr.spe801 My steam is Rhett63 or on facebook if you like its Rhett D Vito

[LukeYoung]

If you take a look again at what you quoted, that is in part what he is trying to get at. He is saying that we don't need the flamboyant uniforms that too-much customization would foster. I can also assure you however that we will have enough customization in place to allow the Northern and Southern ranks to not be like what was seen in 1861. On another note LukeYoung, I suggest toning down the aggressiveness of your wording. I do understand that you and many others might not have had a chance at looking at our rather new forum rules that you can find here (http://www.warofrightsforum.com/showthread.php?1047-Forum-Rules), but I do wish to stress that as of now they are going to start being enforced. But please, continue to comment on whatever you might see as being off, as we are always open to constructive criticism within the prescribed rules. But praise is always nice to have too! ;)

Let me simplify this down a bit , you have around 2000 backers for this game and yall still give the same excuse everytime someone who does criticize our opinions mabey instead of using you poor excuse as a reenactor as a primary source why don't they get someone who does know what they doing sense they do have over $150k donated by the people who wanna see a authentic Civil War game and trust me this game has been all over authentic Civil War forums and it's the same thing from everyone the uniforms look horribly incorrect. Thanks

[Arkansan]

Ain't no one going to listen to you when you talk like that Luke. No matter how correct/incorrect you are. Have some tact.

[LukeYoung]

Ain't no one going to listen to you when you talk like that Luke. No matter how correct/incorrect you are. Have some tact.

See what i mean asked for criticism and gets butt hurt.... Welcome to 2015 were anything you say someone will be butt hurt..

[Arkansan]

The only thing you're criticizing is your maturity and ability to join a conversation :rolleyes:

[LukeYoung]

The only thing you're criticizing is your maturity and ability to join a conversation :rolleyes:

Not really.... Lol if you didn't notice I wasn't even targeting you but hell you decided to run your mouth anyways but shit let's not talk about that don't wanna here you pissing and moaning about how mature you are on the Internet but if you would like I would gladly give you a lesson or too on the ANV in the Maryland campaign of 62.

[GeorgeCrecy]

See what i mean asked for criticism and gets butt hurt.... Welcome to 2015 were anything you say someone will be butt hurt..

Hey there LukeYoung. I want to assure you that we - nor I as the primary historian for the project - are here to offer excuses, and certainly not to promote the wrong history. We want this to be something that teachers and professors would be proud to show in their classrooms as a proper and correct representation of the period just as much as it is a fun game. As I explained before we are all too happy to take constructive criticism, especially were you to provide specific examples that we in turn can take a look at and see if there is anything wrong. I take this very seriously and openly, and am not here to preserve my pride or any sort of ego, but to be true to the history. So please, show us where we have erred and from what sources you draw as an example of what you think was proper, and we can go from there. I invite you to open up a thread on this sub section of the forum with what you think is wrong and what you think it should be, and we will be happy to look into it and see if your claims are true.
However, without specific examples, there is no way that this conversation is actually going anywhere but to a needless war of words, and I suggest it end. However, I am confident that you will have something to show, and that we here will be open to it.

EDIT: I did find your previous thread you opened up, I apologize that I hadn't seen it previous to my other posts. With the spur of interest and excitement about our development, I'm afraid it got lost in the maelstrom despite my trying to keep good tabs on any new threads. I will continue to keep an eye on it and respond as soon as I start seeing hard evidence behind your views.

[Arkansan]

I was trying to help you understand that everything you said was wasted when you worded it so poorly with profanity and horrible grammar. As I am not a historian and did not ask for any history lessons, no thanks. Thought they give free lessons on tact and respect in the military, you should try it.

[Hinkel]

1. When wearing blanket rolls the top of the blanket would hang over the left shoulder instead of right. If it hung over the right shoulder you would have a thick blanket impeding your aiming. Also, there need to be variants of blankets. Confederates had all kinds of things they would use for blankets such as coverlets, carpet, homemade, captured, or basically anything they could get their hands on. Also, it wouldn't hurt for every few of them to have an oil/ground cloth wrapped over their blankets.
.

Ohh, looking at blanket rolls btw, its great to have a look at actual civil war photographys and sketches.
You will notice, that actual civil war soldiers used to have their blankets on the right shoulder, like we have portrayed so far. Maybe its something those reenactors should have look at :)
The aiming wasn't a problem at all. It was used to limit the recoil and it removed some preasure on the shoulders. Beside that, they tried to keep the cartridge box clear.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/18/a5/ee/18a5eee120cfb5ff4b91611cf42ed0cc.jpg

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3346/3290260299_41636caa49_b.jpg

http://www.history.army.mil/html/bookshelves/resmat/civil_war/images/Artwork/8-51-77.jpg

[Soulfly]

Ohh, looking at blanket rolls btw, its great to have a look at actual civil war photographys and sketches.
You will notice, that actual civil war soldiers used to have their blankets on the right shoulder, like we have portrayed so far. Maybe its something those reenactors should have look at :)
The aiming wasn't a problem at all. It was used to limit the recoil and it removed some preasure on the shoulders. Beside that, they tried to keep the cartridge box clear.

+ having the knot on the gun carrying arm might be a little interfering. At least that was my feeling when i tried it myself during my active days, though a line formation with assault rifles looks ridiculous:P

[Tar Heel]

I agree about using actual photographs for research, but you have to look at more than 2. ;)

Confederate soldiers marching through Frederick, MD during the Maryland Campaign.
1899
Good mix of left and right shoulder blanket rolls.

Confederate prisoners captured at the Battle of Five Forks, VA
1900
Good mix of left and right shoulder blanket rolls.

So, I'm willing to back down from my statement that everyone wore their blanket over the left shoulder, but I'm not willing to agree that all soldiers used the right shoulder instead. I guess it really comes down to personal preference. There were no regulations written on how blankets were to be carried. It just came down to what worked best for the soldier, and the blanket roll was a method that was developed long before the American Civil War.

I've tried carrying a blanket roll both ways and found that the left shoulder works better for me. I've never had any issues getting into my cartridge box when carrying it this way. But, there may be some people who prefer the right shoulder.

So, I guess if it isn't too much work for the developers, my previous suggestion of having the option of selecting either shoulder when customizing your character's blanket roll would be the most accurate solution.

[Bravescot]

You are a true kinda fuck tard just so you know, it dont matter what the fuck you say or how much you think you know they grey JOHNNY REBEL you thinks of is a myth all that grey and orderly looking uniforms was gone after 61

LukeYoung has been banned for 7 days on account of receiving 4 infractions for the breaking of forum rules 2 & 3

[GeorgeCrecy]

I agree about using actual photographs for research, but you have to look at more than 2. ;)

Confederate soldiers marching through Frederick, MD during the Maryland Campaign.
1899
Good mix of left and right shoulder blanket rolls.

Confederate prisoners captured at the Battle of Five Forks, VA
1900
Good mix of left and right shoulder blanket rolls.

So, I'm willing to back down from my statement that everyone wore their blanket over the left shoulder, but I'm not willing to agree that all soldiers used the right shoulder instead. I guess it really comes down to personal preference. There were no regulations written on how blankets were to be carried. It just came down to what worked best for the soldier, and the blanket roll was a method that was developed long before the American Civil War.

I've tried carrying a blanket roll both ways and found that the left shoulder works better for me. I've never had any issues getting into my cartridge box when carrying it this way. But, there may be some people who prefer the right shoulder.

So, I guess if it isn't too much work for the developers, my previous suggestion of having the option of selecting either shoulder when customizing your character's blanket roll would be the most accurate solution.

Hey there TarHeel. In your travails, does your unit use Gilhem's or Hardee's/Casey's?

[Tar Heel]

Hey there TarHeel. In your travails, does your unit use Gilhem's or Hardee's/Casey's?

I usually do CS impressions, especially NC, so mostly Hardee's.

[SpectretheGreat]

We dont need the lolipop guild skipping into combat, for authenticity you should spawn only with base uniforms that are randomised slightly from player to player. For the Confederates you'll find a lot of diverse uniforms but for the Yanks maybe just certain small changes so not everyone looks like the clones from Star Wars.

[William]

Thank you very much for answering. I'm just glad to see that people actually care and don't want it to look like a 1960's western. I figured it was in alpha, I just wanted to make sure that they looked how they probably did that September day. I had a few more thoughts.

1. Do you plan on giving every Confederate an 1853 enfield and every Federal a '61 Springfield? This is a huge misconception because even at this point in the war I don't think that weapons were that uniformed. I know the "Irish Brigade" was famous for having those .69 caliber smoothbores with buck-and-ball, but I bet there were several other regiments who had different weapons than the two previously mentioned, especially your flanking companies who you wanted to have the best weapons available.

2. I'm curious about the planned wounding system. I feel like if an expanding bullet like what was used during the war was to hit somebody, it would take them out of the battle. Expanding bullets were made illegal by the Hague convention because of their destructive ability. When it hit bone it didn't break, it shattered. I just think that unless it's a complete flesh wound, you're taken out of the battle. There's a pretty interesting article that talks about being shot, I can link it if you'd like.

3. Will units be able to perform movements like wheels and obliques without the system's help? Or is it all on the training of the players?

you did a really good to share this ideas with us Mr Sped801 :)
Nice Ideas und really good to read :)

[-Mitchell-]

After examining some of the screenshots i've noticed that all confederate soldiers have cartridge box slings. A cartridge box attached to the belt would make a good addition to confederate customization. It also would be nice to add a mix of brown leather and some linen slings rather than the generic black.

http://jamesdjulia.com/wp-content/uploads/images/auctions/222/images/org/31421.jpg

[Tar Heel]

After examining some of the screenshots i've noticed that all confederate soldiers have cartridge box slings. A cartridge box attached to the belt would make a good addition to confederate customization. It also would be nice to add a mix of brown leather and some linen slings rather than the generic black.

http://jamesdjulia.com/wp-content/uploads/images/auctions/222/images/org/31421.jpg

All excellent ideas.

[A. P. Hill]

And quite common during the war in fact. :)

[Landree]

I don't see any problem with full customization if all the components are correct. Hell, you could even limit certain items based on state or regiment if need be. Loving these suggestions.

[Landree]

All of the Ideas are great! though as a reenactor I suggest not not wearing shoes during a reenactment. my friend learned that the hard way XD

You get real aquainted with some southern boys and they grew up barefoot and are used to it. To the average shoe wearer like myself, it'd just tear me up.