What are your thoughts on what is happening to the Confederate Flag?

[Historical Player]

I am very upset by all this, and it isn't right. What are your thoughts on this? Also, I am second lieutenant now! :P

[TrustyJam]

Strictly speaking, it isn't THE confederate flag. :) I understand the views of both sides.

- Trusty

[Historical Player]

Strictly speaking, it isn't THE confederate flag. :) I understand the views of both sides.

- Trusty

Yea, it's the Battle Flag. -Historical Player

[Ry1459]

As Trusty mentioned before, I understand both views on the matter. This is a very "touchy" topic, but I have seen people say it is like the Nazi Germany flag being used in Germany today.

[Josy_Wales]

I really dont understand it. There there were wrongs on both sides of the conflict, and I think you should be able to wave it as much as you want. Most people get fed the wrong, "star wars history" as I like to call it. The people thinking that flag represents something bad, need to look at the conflict and the history form more then one side, and try to understand that people looked at things differntly back then. The people under the stars and stripes diddnt have a revolutionary view on race or anything compared to the people under the confederate battle flag or stars and bars. I can talk about this for days, but the main issiue is what people think the flag represents and dont bother or want to learn anything else. If you can flutter the stars and stripes, you can flutter the battle flag, simple as that.

[MrAmerican]

^ expanding on what was said above.

I'm a yankee at heart, lol. But I do understand the viewpoints on both sides.
My opinion, you should be able to fly whatever flag you wish, but if you radicalize the ideals behind that flag and carry out violent attacks because of those radical ideals, then that is where the line must be drawn.
In the wake of the horrible attack at the church in South Carolina (sick bastard should burn in hell btw) people are looking to anything they can grab onto to figure out why a person could do such a horrible thing. If you don't know already, a young white man sat in on a prayer meet in a black church (though they accept all, the families of the ones murdered where super forgiving... I don't understand how they did it, I'd would have killed that man if he did that to my family) for about an hour and at the end he stood up and said something along the lines of "You n***ers are ruining our country, taking our jobs, raping our women... you must all die, ect,ect." Then he shot the women and men and children there, though one child survived by playing dead, and he let one women go right before he executed the people telling her, "go, tell the world what has happened here...". The bastard was a known white supremesist, he also was a radical "supporter of the south" he flew the confederate flag with pride and radicalized their ideals. He wanted the south the rise again and another civil war to start... this man was an insane racist... and due to him involving the south and the confederate flag it further reinforces the stereotype that the confederate flag symbolism slavery and racism as does the Swastika represent tyranny and the genocide of the Jews.

It also doesn't help that we are taught (coming from a 15 year old and history buff, the US History lessons are still fresh in my mind) that the civil war was over racism and slavery and the South, wanted to enslave the African Americans, and the North, wanted to free the African Americans. Which is not at all how it went down, the Civil War did not even start over slavery, though Lincoln did involve it later on for more support from the Abolistionists, ect. Also the north forced many slaves to fight in the war for them, and if they survived they would be free, and also many slaves refused to abandon their masters when the North came through because they had free living, food, clothing... not every master was the stereotypical arrogrant "cracker" that was on his horse whipping his slaves calling out racial slurs. I'm not defending slavery, owning a person is extremely wrong, but many slaves did not have it that bad, their masters sometimes acted just like a boss... and with enough effort the slave could earn his freedom pretty fairly.
But unless people actually go and search for the truth they only know what social media and the schools have taught them... and many of my peers don't watch the news and care about what is going on. They only care about how many likes they're going to get on their next selfie or who is dating who, ect. Don't get me wrong, I'm a social person, but I also like to keep my eyes are ears open to the world and like to look at things from all angles. So concluding the rant, there is nothing we can do about it... majority rules, even if the majority is being ignorant or just plain uniformed on the situation, and society these days simply doesn't want to look for the truth or come to their own conclusion... they just take the first information they get and consider it the truth... and until we can fix that kind of mentality, our freedoms of speech, thought, and action are slowly going to decrease until one day we are going to only have one means of getting information and that is going to be the truth and if you disagree, you will be shunned from society, or worse.

If you read through my entire rant, then you have some serious superpowers. Have a good day everyone, adios. :p

[Historical Player]

^ expanding on what was said above.

I'm a yankee at heart, lol. But I do understand the viewpoints on both sides.
My opinion, you should be able to fly whatever flag you wish, but if you radicalize the ideals behind that flag and carry out violent attacks because of those radical ideals, then that is where the line must be drawn.
In the wake of the horrible attack at the church in South Carolina (sick bastard should burn in hell btw) people are looking to anything they can grab onto to figure out why a person could do such a horrible thing. If you don't know already, a young white man sat in on a prayer meet in a black church (though they accept all, the families of the ones murdered where super forgiving... I don't understand how they did it, I'd would have killed that man if he did that to my family) for about an hour and at the end he stood up and said something along the lines of "You n***ers are ruining our country, taking our jobs, raping our women... you must all die, ect,ect." Then he shot the women and men and children there, though one child survived by playing dead, and he let one women go right before he executed the people telling her, "go, tell the world what has happened here...". The bastard was a known white supremesist, he also was a radical "supporter of the south" he flew the confederate flag with pride and radicalized their ideals. He wanted the south the rise again and another civil war to start... this man was an insane racist... and due to him involving the south and the confederate flag it further reinforces the stereotype that the confederate flag symbolism slavery and racism as does the Swastika represent tyranny and the genocide of the Jews.

It also doesn't help that we are taught (coming from a 15 year old and history buff, the US History lessons are still fresh in my mind) that the civil war was over racism and slavery and the South, wanted to enslave the African Americans, and the North, wanted to free the African Americans. Which is not at all how it went down, the Civil War did not even start over slavery, though Lincoln did involve it later on for more support from the Abolistionists, ect. Also the north forced many slaves to fight in the war for them, and if they survived they would be free, and also many slaves refused to abandon their masters when the North came through because they had free living, food, clothing... not every master was the stereotypical arrogrant "cracker" that was on his horse whipping his slaves calling out racial slurs. I'm not defending slavery, owning a person is extremely wrong, but many slaves did not have it that bad, their masters sometimes acted just like a boss... and with enough effort the slave could earn his freedom pretty fairly.
But unless people actually go and search for the truth they only know what social media and the schools have taught them... and many of my peers don't watch the news and care about what is going on. They only care about how many likes they're going to get on their next selfie or who is dating who, ect. Don't get me wrong, I'm a social person, but I also like to keep my eyes are ears open to the world and like to look at things from all angles. So concluding the rant, there is nothing we can do about it... majority rules, even if the majority is being ignorant or just plain uniformed on the situation, and society these days simply doesn't want to look for the truth or come to their own conclusion... they just take the first information they get and consider it the truth... and until we can fix that kind of mentality, our freedoms of speech, thought, and action are slowly going to decrease until one day we are going to only have one means of getting information and that is going to be the truth and if you disagree, you will be shunned from society, or worse.

If you read through my entire rant, then you have some serious superpowers. Have a good day everyone, adios. :p
I agree with what you are saying and coming from a 15 year old viewpoint like myself would agree that many people want to be on the popular train and they are willing to throw their heritage and ancestors under the wagon and go with the "in" crowd.

[Bravescot]

I have no strong feeling about this one way or another (Futurama anyone ;))

[Historical Player]

I have no strong feeling about this one way or another (Futurama anyone ;))

I don't want to live on this planet anymore.

[Rithal]

Well I'm going to go ahead and be the first to represent the south in this thread :)

While I do understand the view points of many people calling for the flag's removal, I must sincerely say that they are just ignorant and blinded by media. The situation is actually quite nasty. As soon as the story surfaced, every media outlet and public figure instantly sided against the use of the flag for fear of being accused of being racists ect.

So I will begin by saying why that flag is important to me, and why it should be allowed to be flown by southern state governments in remembrance. The flag represents a people who had the stones to stand up against the Federal government's encroaching power. Let me remind you that Northern states held more seats in the U.S congress, and thus could focus on their own agenda of stimulating further Industrial growth in the North. Examples of said stimulation can be found in the Tariffs of 1828 and 1832. Policies like these required a central government that could enforce tariffs on national borders. The south however had a completely opposite economic setup. The majority of income in the South came from plantations. Plantations, operated almost entirely by slave labor, produced cash crops like cotton, and tobacco that would be sold often times to Europe. Tariffs that were meant to limit trade between Europe and America benefited Northern industry, while it harmed southern plantations. This was a major factor in the initial split of the north and south. Moving forward to the election of Lincoln, he decidedly was against the spread of Slavery. Slavery , as horrible as it might sound, was a guaranteed right and could be voted on by each state. Lincoln's encroachment on the state's right of slavery was a red flag. If he could deny states this right, what other rights could the federal government deny? Then S.C seceded, then this happened, then this happened, then boom... Civil war.

So now that I have that out of the way, it is the idea that state governments stood up to the Federal government that gets me. These men were true patriots in my opinion, due to them fighting for state's rights guaranteed by the constitution. This idea of southern sovereignty has been perpetuated until this day. This means that the Confederacy has largely become a symbol for the south, and part of our proud history and prideful nature. Thus, the flag is engraved in our culture.

I haven't really taken a professional course on what caused the Civil War, but this is how I've always explained it. Based on the reasons for the war, I can justify the honor I find in my southern heritage. Just my two cents... I invite someone who is more knowledgeable on the subject like George Crecy, to come and clean my argument up a little bit :)

[GeorgeCrecy]

It seems I have been invited! Would be a terrible show of me not to accept.
Now, before I begin, I must say that what is to follow is of personal views and should not be construed as reflecting the views of the company.
I begin by saying that the loss of life in Charleston is terrible, to say the least. Even worse is the loss to the families of those that were killed, and their sacrifice represents a continued presence of racism in this country that pervades itself in the minds of all, though there is an idea that such things have long since died out. For millenia humans have had an in-grained sense of tribalism, which states that those of their tribe are good, and those not of their tribe are bad - or at the very least unequal. Years worth of such subconscious work is hard to unearth and set aside, and our culture, our movies, our books, and even advertisements at times can help to fortify those beliefs. There is unequal treatment by police and the justice system when it comes to blacks vs. whites, as much as there is in the job market, as a recent study showed when they put the exact same resume with a black's and a white's name to employers, and found that the "white" resume was given the job more. So now we set the seeds for our destruction, and with it come those like the young man who did this to be most brainwashed by these principles. Tragedy follows.

I now come to the point about the Confederate battle flag. The issue at hand was whether the flag should be flown at state houses and other government buildings. To this I personally believe that this should not be, as these flags were last officially flown as symbols of secession, and as such are a symbol of also being a traitor to the nation. So it is odd that these flags should be flown at state houses, especially if it is on the same pole as which is flying the nation's colors! That is a lesson in a contradiction. No matter how good the slaves had it from their masters, they were still slaves, and that is not excusable. They lived in huts with dirt floors and holes in the wattle-and-daub walls, given very little food for their work, and the rattiest of clothing. Again, nothing excuses slavery. Furthermore, the terrors of former slaves did not end with the Civil War, or even the Civil Rights movement of the 1960's. After the Civil War many blacks lived in terrible states of poverty, or continued to work at the same plantations where they were previously slaves, to which the only real change was a change in their political designation. Those that turned to sharecropping often became debtors to their former masters, if not to banks or other institutions. On top of their economic downturns, racism and segregation continued in the south for years, relegating blacks to being sub-human. Jim Crow laws replaced their physical chains, and after several years a more radicalized KKK began to raid, terrorize, and rape their way across the south, growing to such power that they marched openly in parades down Washington DC, and where cops and judges across the south could also claim membership, and to where no black could turn to for aid for their sorrow. Throughout all this the Stars and Bars were flown,without any turn of the imagination a symbol of the days from before those up north put a collar across the depravity of slavery, to the days many wished they could return. Politicians in the south openly based their campaigns on overt racism previous to the 1960's, and the trend continues.

This is why there are many who call for such a symbol to be torn down from official government buildings. It has become the American version of the Berlin Wall, though it had been up longer still, festering like an open wound. While it's history is rich, and does indeed represent a diverse culture of the southern states, such culture should be relegated to museums and reenactments, where the proper history can be taught, and the lessons of our past can be learned, not repeated. Of course people should have the right to fly it of their own volition, but there is a difference between private property and that of the public, which is again the point of this conversation. Flying it personally is a matter of freedom of speech, and is of course protected. However, you cannot ask people to pay tax dollars to an institution which flies a flag symbolizing in large part their ancestor's worst time. That is like asking a Jew to pay a government which flies a neo-Nazi flag.
Again, these are personal opinions, and I also wish to say that I understand the other reasons for their being flown. I am a historian at heart though not by degree as of yet, so I understand the wish to keep the past in mind, but I must also state that such a past is not one I would wish to go back to, no matter how good a few of the memories might be when it would also bring out the rest of the laundry.

[Historical Player]

I am sick of everyone jumping on the "Tear The Flag Down" Bandwagon and the Confederate flag reminds me of my heritage. My Ancestor was a Colonel in the 36th Virginia Infantry and I had many Ancestors in the 42nd Virginia and they fought because they felt threatened by the North, not because of slavery. None of my Ancestors before the Civil War owned slaves, they worked the fields themselves. I feel as though my family and heritage is under attack, and most people have no idea what they are talking about! Take the flags down from Capitol Buildings, but leave it up along with the other Confederate Memorials. This may be the start of another American Civil War, and it just goes to show you that if you complain about something enough you will get your way. Liberals and Obama are willing to tear this nation apart just to please some people. My rant is over, but it could go for days.

[Josy_Wales]

People can have their opinions about this and everything, but I really can't stand it when slavery is brought up as the biggest and only problem. To me, saying that the Confederate battle flag needs to be taken down, is the same as saying they need to stop having the stars and stripes shown publicly because of how they treated the indians (which was much worse and lasted a lot longer). The southern soldier fought for his home and family, while many union soldier didn't know anything of what he was fighting for. Keep in mind that the union soldiers was consisting of mostly immigrants, people that didn't care about slavery and people that had not even seen a black person before. States rights was as much a problem as slavery. Lincoln won the presidency without even being on the ballot in 10 Southern states because of how little electoral votes the South had, and the south had virtually no influence over the course of the nation. They had every reason to secede and therefor every reason to show their heritage now.

[Nick Lazanis]

As previously mentioned it's not the Confederate flag but a battle flag :P. I believe that it is an absolute shame banning that flag due to a psychopath going on a killing spree that sported that flag. It is disrespecting people that fought with it and their ideas. This is called removing truth from history,hence making it just an unprofitable tale (Polybius-rise of the Roman empire). I don't live in the US but apparently in today's society over there freedom of speech and civil rights have to be "Politically correct" Also some games have been pulled out from the apple appstore due the very flag. In my opinion this should happened and the flag should have remained as it is.

[GeorgeCrecy]

Hey there Historical Player and Josy Wales,

We are not advocating that the culture of the south be eradicated. We are advocating that a flag which no longer belongs on the flag poles of official government buildings do not continue to do so. Yet again, freedom of speech is an important and protected right, and one that I would help to protect all day long. For instance, if there was a group of neo-Nazis or KKK members who wished to assemble peacefully in a public square, while I do not agree with their views in the least, I do believe that that is their right to be able to assemble if they do so peacefully. It is just the same with those that wish to fly the battle flag have every right to do so because that is their right as citizens of the US, and I will defend their ability to do so. However, I do not believe that the flag should be flown at an official government building, which is once again what the issue is. You will find some people who wish it to be gone completely, but all of us here are not part of that small group. I have also had another bit of news brought to my attention, which you might find of interest as well: http://www.ultimategeneral.com/blog/our-game-has-been-removed-from-appstore
Censorship is wrong, especially when the battle flag is an essential part of history and the process of teaching about the Civil War.

[Nick Lazanis]

http://www.ultimategeneral.com/blog/our-game-has-been-removed-from-appstore
Censorship is wrong, especially when the battle flag is an essential part of history.

Exactly. I completely agree with you. I mentioned the Ultimate general censorship in my post aswell.

[Rithal]

The fact that Apple has chosen to remove Ultimate General from the Appstore disgusts me. As many of you know, the game is a one of a kind tactical simulation of the Battle of Gettysburg with brilliant A.I, and a new experience every campaign whether it be, one of your divisions arrives late and you lose the battle, or one of your divisions arrives early and you drive the enemy off the field. The game is meant for fun and I am assuming it was removed because of its use of the Confederate flag, which is historically accurate to the battle.... Whatever. Enough about that.

George, I completely agree that the battle flag should not be flown on state buildings. In this case however, it is being flown on state grounds near a memorial for fallen confederate soldiers.

The flag was originally flown above the capital in 1965. The order of flags from top to bottom went like this. American flag --> South Carolina state flag --> Confederate battle flag.

The flag remained in this position until 2000. In 2000, there was a ceremony held where a white student, and a black student from the South Carolina Military College removed the flag from the capital, and replaced it on a newly erected pole at the memorial. In this case, I would say the problem was fixed in 2000, and the flag is now meant to serve history, and honor our southern ancestors who fought and died. I rest my case! :D

All of our European friends right now are probably thinking "WTF is wrong with the United States...." XD I don't blame you guys.

[Historical Player]

The fact that Apple has chosen to remove Ultimate General from the Appstore disgusts me. As many of you know, the game is a one of a kind tactical simulation of the Battle of Gettysburg with brilliant A.I, and a new experience every campaign whether it be, one of your divisions arrives late and you lose the battle, or one of your divisions arrives early and you drive the enemy off the field. The game is meant for fun and I am assuming it was removed because of its use of the Confederate flag, which is historically accurate to the battle.... Whatever. Enough about that.

George, I completely agree that the battle flag should not be flown on state buildings. In this case however, it is being flown on state grounds near a memorial for fallen confederate soldiers.

The flag was originally flown above the capital in 1965. The order of flags from top to bottom went like this. American flag --> South Carolina state flag --> Confederate battle flag.

The flag remained in this position until 2000. In 2000, there was a ceremony held where a white student, and a black student from the South Carolina Military College removed the flag from the capital, and replaced it on a newly erected pole at the memorial. In this case, I would say the problem was fixed in 2000, and the flag is now meant to serve history, and honor our southern ancestors who fought and died. I rest my case! :D

All of our European friends right now are probably thinking "WTF is wrong with the United States...." XD I don't blame you guys.
I love Ultimate General and I am sickened by Apple's decision. I think the flag should not be flown on top of Government buildings unless it is on a memorial.

[Nick Lazanis]

I have all my life been thinking WTF is wrong with the United States....And you are giving me more material :P

[Rithal]

I have all my life been thinking WTF is wrong with the United States....And you are giving me more material :P

XD There are lots of things wrong with the U.S, but there are also lots of things that aren't wrong with the U.S. We do lots of things right, but other things not so much.

[Josy_Wales]

I cant complain much about how people are handling things in my country, but how we are taught history is one of the things thats mediocre. I dont know how things are where any of you live, but I have always felt that my historybooks and what I have been told are very biased on one side of the conflicts. If someone are taught something, its hard to make them think something else and from what my historybook tells, it isnt wierd that people think there always is one good and one bad side.

Back on the subject. Whatever people do to give the flag a bad reputation, I will still think and say the same. I dont think its right, but if pressure to remove the flag keep increasing, there isnt really much point keeping it up.
I usually dont like to go into political stuff since you get to see all the wrongs, stupidity and unfair things this world has to offer.

[Mi'kmaq]

As an ardent Southern secessionist, I must say that this situation is idiotic. I have seen countless news articles, videos, etc with facts that are pulled of their ass. Such as the the Confederate flag becoming popular as a symbol of anti-integration in 1948. Many US military units comprised of Southerners used the flag in WWII. It was raised over Shuri Castle after the Battle of Okinawa. Southern soldiers in Vietnam used the flag as well.

1071

1072

[Rithal]

As an ardent Southern secessionist, I must say that this situation is idiotic. I have seen countless news articles, videos, etc with facts that are pulled of their ass. Such as the the Confederate flag becoming popular as a symbol of anti-integration in 1948. Many US military units comprised of Southerners used the flag in WWII. It was raised over Shuri Castle after the Battle of Okinawa. Southern soldiers in Vietnam used the flag as well.

Well it was used by many pro-white movements, however I would say those are mis-uses of the flag by those who are ignorant of what it stands for. It is basically just a representation of the southern U.S as supported by the pictures you provided.

[Ry1459]

Apple has decided to remove American Civil War games, or any game that has it, from the appstore because of them conaining the flag. Now that's crazy. Removing an educational game because of the flag? Honestly, it's the developers that are taking the biggest hit from this move.

[PurplePanda]

I think the misuses of the confederate flag for hateful reasons is the reason there is pressure to take them down from state buildings and state flags.

I may be totally wrong because I am Canadian and the confederate flag doesn't really matter to me :)

[Rithal]

I think the misuses of the confederate flag for hateful reasons is the reason there is pressure to take them down from state buildings and state flags.

I may be totally wrong because I am Canadian and the confederate flag doesn't really matter to me :)

No, that is exactly what is happening. People see KKK members marching with Confederate flags, but ignore the ones marching with American flags... Its just the media confusing everyone and basically saying "Hey, target audience of 18 - 28 year olds... If you don't hop on this bandwagon right now, you are A RACIST!!!!" Thats pretty much what is going on.

[Historical Player]

No, that is exactly what is happening. People see KKK members marching with Confederate flags, but ignore the ones marching with American flags... Its just the media confusing everyone and basically saying "Hey, target audience of 18 - 28 year olds... If you don't hop on this bandwagon right now, you are A RACIST!!!!" Thats pretty much what is going on.
EXACTLY! Liberals are willing to tear us a part just to please a small group of people. It's ridiculous!

[zimmer1lb]

I posted something on YouTube kinda like this: The things being said about the Confederate flag can, if truthfully considered, be applied to our current US flag. Torture, unconstitutional wars, black ops sites, erosion of the Constitution, massive corruption, what happened to the American Indian etc etc. And what about all the other countries and their transgressions. Should we now discard our flag?? There is no end.

zimm out

[Rithal]

I posted something on YouTube kinda like this: The things being said about the Confederate flag can, if truthfully considered, be applied to our current US flag. Torture, unconstitutional wars, black ops sites, erosion of the Constitution, massive corruption, what happened to the American Indian etc etc. And what about all the other countries and their transgressions. Should we now discard our flag?? There is no end.

zimm out

Exactly. I saw a video where someone did a social experiment. He went around asking people to sign a petition to change the U.S flag because of the Stars and Stripe's history of imperialism, racism, and cruelty against the natives. Many citizens signed.... It goes to show you that most people will hop on a bandwagon to avoid being called a racist or politically incorrect without looking into the facts themselves.

[Mr.Tactical]

I feel as if they are erasing history as time passes by. Much like the tactics of "ISIS".

[Rithal]

Yeah I'm definitely against the whole "It was 150 years ago. Let it go." idea.

Welcome to the forum Mr. Tactical.

[Historical Player]

Yeah I'm definitely against the whole "It was 150 years ago. Let it go." idea.

Welcome to the forum Mr. Tactical.

Let it Go! Let it Go!

[zimmer1lb]

Hmmm.......additional consideration:
For how many centuries have various peoples carried a grudge against another?? They probably don't even remember how it got started as stories change with the telling. It's amazing after all these eons and countless wars they are still going on.

I believe it was an Austrian or Prussian who said something like this........."if the men would think, they all would go home."


zimm out