Why the TK'ing?

[McMuffin]

This post is me genuinely asking the community a question that hopefully will spark proper talking about the subject of teamkilling. Teamkilling used to be something that was a rare occurrence. It is the opposite now. I do understand that mistakes are made, and that is perfectly fine. I just played a game with 30 people and saw teamkilling at least eleven times; none were purposeful from what I am aware. Teamkilling is something we all hate, but it seems that we still see it plenty of times. So it begs the question, why?

My theory is twofold. The first reason is that because of the drop in active units; recruiting, for a while now, has been on a precipitous decline. So, this means we see either a lot of hasty recruiting with little to no training just for the sake of saying, 'Oh look how many people we have!', Alternatively, many people who just aren't part of a unit are playing the game with essentially no knowledge. These two groups of untrained people within a unit and non-unit people are the majority of the people we see teamkilling. The second reason ties into the first. The active units do not spend time familiarizing people with the game. Drilling and marching and does not equate to being familiar with the game. Drilling and marching equates to being familiar with a handful of commands and some history; a game is different. Familiarizing yourself with the game means knowing its nuances, the little tricks, tips, funny little oddities within the game (of which an Alpha version of a game has a plethora of). It is these very oddities, tips, tricks, and nuances not being taught to people that are the cause of this. These nuances range from the small but quick to find details you can look for to quickly ID a person at a distance to knowing the systems of the game itself such as the formations buff system. These types of nuances and details are what cause people to teamkill. On the other hand, you have the apparent lack of common sense training. Common sense training entails things like, 'Don't step in front of a skirmishing group that is firing,' 'Don't go running towards a line by yourself and say nothing because someone will shoot you.'. Lack of common sense training is what causes people to be teamkilled.

I am not asking units to spend a ton of time doing this, but I guarantee if you do this you will see a drop in teamkilling and you may even see some higher attendance in drill. Why? If your officers put their minds to it, I am sure they can come up with a creative exercise to teach these drills and keep it entertaining. You cannot make drill just marching and firing drills, that is incredibly boring. Teach some new formations, branch out, and if you do this drill will become interesting as people are learning things and not repeating it.

[John Cooley]

Sadly the Reasons are as numerous as the TKs themselves ...
- To Cycle a map
- Inexperienced Players
- Goofing off
- Revenge for an accidental TK that wasn't apologized for
- Unit Rivalries
- Personal Rivalries
- Griefing by asshats
- Heat of Battle
- Fog of War
and that's just off the top of my head so I have, most assuredly, missed many more.

Debate the merits, of these reasons, all we want but as long as a game has a TK mechanic it has always been a problem.
Sure, people get better and Private Servers will ban the worst offenders but it will still remain a "Reality of War".

I completely agree that continued, and better, Training is a must.

[Bravescot]

Sadly the Reasons are as numerous as the TKs themselves ...
- To Cycle a map

II Corps can tell us all about that one.

Accidental TKs happen all the time and you seem to have ruling that out far too much. Did the 1stTX not accidently wipe out a friendly CSA line due to fog of war the other day? 42ndPA have done the same to a USA frinedly line before. It happens and you're looking into it too much. Only on rare occations are the TKs actually done with ill intenet.

[Redleader]

II Corps can tell us all about that one.


Like I stated before, the whole generalisation doesn't help the current state of affairs.
We understand the issue and II corps command is resolving it.

Mc Muffin has a point though about people getting recruited in certain company's and due to their inexperience or lack of discipline cause problems.
Much every game these days has to deal with these kind of problems and you'll always spot the bad apples first even if 90% of the basket are good apples :)

Other aspects are indeed :

The range (at range it's hard to tell uniforms, unless someone is waving a gigantic flag)
Melee combat (you need to get the hang of melee combat, if both teams are heavily engaged close range .. tk's will be an issue)
The blue uniforms for the CSA, you can't imagine how many times I needed to yell .. Friendly (well with a Southern accent).


McMuffin, it's true .. it's sometimes common sense.

[Leifr]

Steady lads, keep the name-calling behind closed doors. :)

[Maximus Decimus Meridius]

Well I didn't recognised a rise of tks it's more the opposite.

The blue CSA uniform is hard for both sides :p (greetings to Corporal Behrens of the 18th NC who marched with us about 5 minutes until we recognised him xD)

[jwhal]

Also the accuracy of the weapons or should I say the inaccuracy.
Many times I shoot at a enemy only to see the player to his left or right fall and sometimes it ends up being a team mate.
I killed A P Hill like that just the other day I was shooting at a enemy up a fence line only to see the player just off his right fall.
I was pleased at least get a the kill until I noticed in chat that it was A P Hill and he was on our side.
I apologized and asked what he was doing so far ahead of our line.
His response killing Yankees.

[A. P. Hill]

LOL. The most irritating part of that incident was I had actually survived being bayneted, my screen was all psychedelic, and swirling all over the place. I had just managed a reload my rifle, while kneeling, but saw more yanks than I could probably fend off coming, so with those screen conditions, I turned to run back to my lines, thinking I'm gonna get shot in the back sure as hell, but no, the above post happened. ;)

I'm still a bullet magnet whether it comes from the yanks or the rebs.

[McMuffin]

Almost all of the reasons brought up in addition to what I said are valid reasons that contribute to so much TK'ing in the game, and mot of them are small oddities within the game that some nuance training like I brought up can help with. Sadly though, John Cooley's reasons that are not linked to nuance training are also very valid. A lot of people TK on purpose for fun or out of spite, and that is the worst but sometimes the hardest to prove.

Also, please do not start putting out names of units or people in this thread because I suspect this thread will be locked or deleted, for good reason, because this will get out of hand, and so far I am seeing good discussion about this topic so I would hate to see it deleted.

[jwhal]

So sorry McMuffen for putting someones name in my post you are correct that appears to be uncivil.
Although naming units appears to be fair game.
Thank you for your kind edit Leifr.

[John Cooley]

II Corps can tell us all about that one.

Kettle Much?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9b7isW-p54&t=424s

[Bravescot]

Shall we do a head count?

51st: 8
42nd: 3 - 2 from Stull who was told off and 1 from Corbin to defend the test we were doing.
6th: 2

What is NOT heard as you have no access to the discord and have chosen to cherry pick what is heard due to the music, is that the 42nd (where I'm telling people to kill Private Corbin of my own unit) where trying to assess how hard it was to hit a moving target. As you can see Corbin is seen running off towards to bushes to run around whilst we attempted to hit him. We were not trying to cycle the map during an event, the event was over.

“People only throw shade on what's shining.”
― Genereux Philip

So if that's all you have to say with that very heavily skewed evidence shall we actually get back on topic?

[John Cooley]

Thanks spending time reading our Corps Thread and re-quoting my quotes.

You called us out so who got it off topic?
Wait ... this is about TKing so we ARE on topic.

I must agree with the Accuracy issue ...
Last Event I shot right past a Yank and expertly picked off one of our own guys. heh

[MadWolf]

From what I have seen the most TKs are during the melee. Sure from time to time, you see a line opening fire upon a friendly line. But I rarely see TKs that are on purpose (To be fair most of the time I play is during events).

If I get TKed by someone (may it be by "lack of training", accidental or on purpose) it can be frustrating sometimes, but I know this is a game and stuff like this happens. So I just respawn, find my unit and move on.

[Valk]

From what I have seen the most TKs are during the melee. Sure from time to time, you see a line opening fire upon a friendly line. But I rarely see TKs that are on purpose (To be fair most of the time I play is during events).

If I get TKed by someone (may it be by "lack of training", accidental or on purpose) it can be frustrating sometimes, but I know this is a game and stuff like this happens. So I just respawn, find my unit and move on.

And that is how it should work. When I play on the CSA side and play as the 12th South Carolina (Wich can have blue uniform parts) Its bound to happen that I get team killed. If so, I hear a lot of "Well I saw blue I thought you were a yankee" I will explain the differences between the 12thSC and the Union. And they try to keep it in mind.

And indeed most of the team killing I see happen during charges. Sadly if I get an NCO with a revolver, it happes from time to time that some team mate charges past me the moment I pull the trigger, I guess its just my bad luck. It happens and it always will sadly.

[zwood]

Lately I have seen several intentional team kills from various regiments, to new players. The intentional team kills, as said above, appear to be done with malice and personal disdain. I have yet to understand the purpose of an intentional team kill, as it doesn't solve anything at all, but what do I know?

Anyhow, most of the TK's are accidental, but some people tend to freak out and think it's intentional. What some people need to understand is that when they charge an enemy position by themselves or in small groups, they are taking the risk of being killed at distances, by other friendly lines. In the fog of war, or in some cases with the terrain it is almost impossible to tell friend from foe. Anytime I'm in line or skirmishing I always reiterate to the people around me to identify their targets before firing. I believe that a lot of the TK's have to deal with someone having an itchy trigger finger. On my end I can tell at long ranges who is blue, and who is gray.

With the melee mode I believe that the current regiments, and active players need to practice their melee attacks. Common sense would tell you don't try and stab the one yank or reb surrounded by five people, but then again common sense isn't there all the time.

Just my two cents.

[Redleader]

LOL. The most irritating part of that incident was I had actually survived being bayneted, my screen was all psychedelic, .

I forgot about the whole 'psychedelic experience' :) Bayonetting is then like being a colorblind drunk and waving a sharp knife around ... some dislike it (I like it though, it adds immersion :p ... however you need to be carefull with the tk's then)

[Saris]

I've seen intentional teamkills with different regiments killing randoms who would not stop blaring their music through voice chat.

[John Jones]

I noticed an increase in my personal team killing around a month ago - I had one session where I managed to kill three comrades in around 5 minutes; I decided I was on a roll and quit playing for the evening. But these took place in Miller's Cornfeld and a wooded area i.e. places where target identification is often very difficult, and where it can be expected, to a certain degree.

I don't know whether my increase was caused by playing on obscured maps more frequently or whether I was just going through a streak of being bad at playing, as I would not describe myself as having an itchy trigger finger. However, I did notice a general increase in TK'ing among other players at the same time on the EU events, generally accidental. Can't speak about what happens on the US events as its way past my beddie-by time.

[John Cooley]

Another form of Noob TKing, that I have witnessed, is when someone insists on being a Rambo and the cost of their death "In Formation" by TK is less costly than their repeated attempts to die "Out Of Formation".

I understand the thought process but am neither convinced that it is effective nor condone its use.
There are better ways to convince someone to be a Team Player and if they won't learn ... Private Servers will limit their presence.

[Bravescot]

How would people rank maps per TKing? I'm sure if we all made a personal list of all the current maps by order of the maps we see the most TKs on vs the maps we see the least TKs on we'd see something of a possible patter.

[John Jones]

For me,
1. Millers cornfield
2. Wooded maps (sorry I cant remember if its North or West woods)
3. Bloody lane (the melee just gets really confusing and the corn to the rear doesn't help)
4. Burnside Bridge when I played a few times as Union (providing poorly aimed covering fire for bridge rushes)

Having thought about it, I wonder if the change to more linear formations has been a reason, at least in my case - as Recon 'cavalry' I was more used to flanking cautiously and could pick my targets with more care. The same is not true at present.

[Bravescot]

For me,
1. Millers cornfield
2. Wooded maps (sorry I cant remember if its North or West woods)
3. Bloody lane (the melee just gets really confusing and the corn to the rear doesn't help)
4. Burnside Bridge when I played a few times as Union (providing poorly aimed covering fire for bridge rushes)

Having thought about it, I wonder if the change to more linear formations has been a reason, at least in my case - as Recon 'cavalry' I was more used to flanking cautiously and could pick my targets with more care. The same is not true at present.

1. Fully agreed! It's early got one of the highest TK rates I've seen. 2nd Mississippi and 6th Wisconsin being mixed up in fog of war is a big one for that.
2. East and West woods with people just being in the wrong place and being killed by mistake.
3. I see more Reb TKs due to the 12th South Carolina causing confustion in the reb lines.
4. I personally rate it low of the TKing list due to the clear side split across the bridge.

I'd also thrown Pry's Ford in there. Melee for the point results in massive confusion.

[John Jones]

3. I see more Reb TKs due to the 12th South Carolina causing confustion in the reb lines.
.

Thats a fair point - I have not fired on Union in the corn because I thought they were SC and I have killed (and been killed as) SC because I thought they were Union. We have had training in uniform recognition several times in Drill Camp but it does get muddled really quickly in the actual skirmishes. However, all soldiers look much the same when they are covered in sh*te (except the US ones I saw in sandy places, I never understood how they could keep so clean). I know TKs are an issue at present, but I'd not like to see it disabled. Its a fact of conflict.

[TrustyJam]

Thats a fair point - I have not fired on Union in the corn because I thought they were SC and I have killed (and been killed as) SC because I thought they were Union. We have had training in uniform recognition several times in Drill Camp but it does get muddled really quickly in the actual skirmishes. However, all soldiers look much the same when they are covered in sh*te (except the US ones I saw in sandy places, I never understood how they could keep so clean). I know TKs are an issue at present, but I'd not like to see it disabled. Its a fact of conflict.

Thank you for your feedback. :)


Tk’s are part of the game and will not be disabled.

- Trusty

[Redleader]

I can only speak for my experience on the CSA side, I play Union only to balance teams or in certain events.



Sunken road : some of us wear 12th Carolina uniforms (blue), it's fine when staying in line but in a charge of coming in from spawn (certainly when Union are in the corn) you probably get friendly lead balls going your way.
Pry Grist Mill : the mill itself can be a deathtrap if players don't know who holds a certain floor, also a uniform problem for some.
Sunken road & Hooker's push : these are big maps and it's hard to tell at range who's who (for the cap it's simple to know who has it ... press 'T')
Wood maps : the CSA is forming up on certain points lately to push forward, before we had units pushing over cap and coming back ... and get shot. (think bot faction has certain points to form up)
Corn maps : it get's way messy if there aren't any lines (or officer lead) or when units are further up.


Dunkers Church, Sherrick & Otto farm, Pipers farm ... there is less TK unless lines are breached.

@Trusty : correct me if I'm wrong but if you get 3 tk's on a map you get kicked or banned for a certain time ?

[TrustyJam]

@Trusty : correct me if I'm wrong but if you get 3 tk's on a map you get kicked or banned for a certain time ?

You are right.

That doesn't mean TK'ing is not meant to be part of the game though (if it wasn't we would have disabled it alltogether). That is there to stop trolls and griefers.

- Trusty

[WeeFilly]

You are right.

Which one, kicked or banned for a certain time?

Because in all honesty, I can imagine that happening, three teamkills in one match. People suddenly running into your line of fire, mistaking a uniform (esp. when having blurred vision, happens to the best I guess), or, most commonly perhaps, in the turmoil of a stab orgy. :/

[TrustyJam]

Which one, kicked or banned for a certain time?

Because in all honesty, I can imagine that happening, three teamkills in one match. People suddenly running into your line of fire, mistaking a uniform (esp. when having blurred vision, happens to the best I guess), or, most commonly perhaps, in the turmoil of a stab orgy. :/

It's not in a match. It slowly resets depending on how long it's been since you last tk'ed one. As long as you don't TK a guy every 2nd minute or so you'll be fine.

And it kicks, doesn't ban.

- Trusty

[McMuffin]

Damn, this thread worked to get people talking about this issue, good to see. Anyways, I am going to try and address multiple topics in one post. The maps listed for TK issues for me are Sunken road because of the Union's uniforms, the uniforms debate is a something worth an entirely separate thread, and Miller's Cornfield. The forest maps usually have units that can be quickly distinguished based on the units having a bright color on them or a very distinctive uniform, so individual and mass-friendly fires do not occur nearly as often. However, when officers and players rush up behind a friendly line or out of nowhere, it should not surprise them someone shoots them or bayonets them.

Teamkilling should one hundred percent stay a game mechanic, do not remove it from -public servers- when private servers come around, and an admin does not want friendly fire on, they should be able to turn it off. Melee friendly fire is an arguable topic, but I think it should stay in as it forces units to develop tactics a bit more to prevent people from always stabbing each other. Melee teamkilling is at a high because most people do not expect that as a function in a game and the current players are still getting used to it, so that should go down relatively soon (of which I have seen it start to decline honestly).

Another thing I think would help with reducing teamkilling is removing the annoying effect of how the player tag slowly gets more prominent, in mass chaos it can help people to quickly ID who is friendly and who is a foe. Also, it makes assembling at spawn harder as you have to get close to people to tell who they are. This is especially prominent in sunken road where the Union charges with their already confusing uniforms and people cannot distinguish them, so they just shoot or stab regardless. Many people also use the T function, or at least used to use it, when hiding behind a tree at a cap point to tell if the person coming up to them was a friendly or an enemy. With the new fading in some people cannot distinguish until they are up close and by then they have already aimed and are ready to shoot whatever is coming around that tree because they are assuming it is an enemy, but it often is not an enemy. It is arguable that these are small issues and do not matter, okay then, whatis the reason for having the player tag slowly fade in?

[TrustyJam]

Another thing I think would help with reducing teamkilling is removing the annoying effect of how the player tag slowly gets more prominent, in mass chaos it can help people to quickly ID who is friendly and who is a foe. Also, it makes assembling at spawn harder as you have to get close to people to tell who they are. This is especially prominent in sunken road where the Union charges with their already confusing uniforms and people cannot distinguish them, so they just shoot or stab regardless. Many people also use the T function, or at least used to use it, when hiding behind a tree at a cap point to tell if the person coming up to them was a friendly or an enemy. With the new fading in some people cannot distinguish until they are up close and by then they have already aimed and are ready to shoot whatever is coming around that tree because they are assuming it is an enemy, but it often is not an enemy. It is arguable that these are small issues and do not matter, okay then, whatis the reason for having the player tag slowly fade in?

You gave the reason why in your post. :)

We don't want you to be able to tell if an enemy or friendly is approaching while you're hiding behind a tree.

- Trusty

[Shiloh]

One thing I'm in favor of and I've mentioned it before but I'd like to see a bit more distinction between uniforms. I know how historically some units - particularly Confederates - had certain uniforms with blue in them and then there were examples like in Fredericksburg where Confederates would go out at night and strip down the Union dead for shoes, trousers, sack coats, whatever as their own clothes we're disintegrating off of them so they would end up in blue. With that said I believe the historical accuracy of uniforms is great to an extent, but when I'm playing a game and spinning around in melee, I want to know the guy I'm plunging my bayonet into is in fact the enemy and right now it's sometimes hard to distinguish. That would certainly cut down on the team killing but at the small sacrifice of some historical accuracy.

But then again you can make the strong argument that shooting guys on your own side was somewhat common in the Civil War - and it was in some cases and in certain battles - so by keeping it 'as is', it is historically accurate. I would say that the percentage of team kills we have on any given map compared with the relative small numbers fighting on the servers, that killing guys on our own side is much higher by percentage in-game than it was in the Civil War.

[McMuffin]

You gave the reason why in your post. :)

We don't want you to be able to tell if an enemy or friendly is approaching while you're hiding behind a tree.

- Trusty

Fair enough, but is that really worth the tradeoffs that I mentioned? The tradeoffs are a lot of inconveniences to the player and units as on the fly organization suffers significantly and in the current state of the game, organizing as quickly as possible is a vital thing. And you have us spawn in large waves of people, grouping up can be a nightmare at times, especially in bigger events.


One thing I'm in favor of and I've mentioned it before but I'd like to see a bit more distinction between uniforms. I know how historically some units - particularly Confederates - had certain uniforms with blue in them and then there were examples like in Fredericksburg where Confederates would go out at night and strip down the Union dead for shoes, trousers, sack coats, whatever as their own clothes we're disintegrating off of them so they would end up in blue. With that said I believe the historical accuracy of uniforms is great to an extent, but when I'm playing a game and spinning around in melee, I want to know the guy I'm plunging my bayonet into is in fact the enemy and right now it's sometimes hard to distinguish. That would certainly cut down on the team killing but at the small sacrifice of some historical accuracy.

But then again you can make the strong argument that shooting guys on your own side was somewhat common in the Civil War - and it was in some cases and in certain battles - so by keeping it 'as is', it is historically accurate. I would say that the percentage of team kills we have on any given map compared with the relative small numbers fighting on the servers, that killing guys on our own side is much higher by percentage in-game than it was in the Civil War.

This is the most significant debate when making a historical game, how far do you go to stay historical while still trying to make a game. Do we want to remain as historic as possible and maintain the amount of uniform mix matching we see, or do we want to substantially reduce it to a small handful for the sake of gameplay and annoyances? Hell, this question is what most of the debates on these forums are about.

[TrustyJam]

While we're not going to change the uniform colours of the 12th SC we will be replacing them on most skirmish areas on Antietam as we'd like to use them in a more fitting skirmish area yet to be released (Hill's Counterattack).

- Trusty

[Saris]

While we're not going to change the uniform colours of the 12th SC we will be replacing them on most skirmish areas on Antietam as we'd like to use them in a more fitting skirmish area yet to be released (Hill's Counterattack).

- Trusty

Who would replace the 12th South Carolina on the maps they are present?

[A. P. Hill]

Who would replace the 12th South Carolina on the maps they are present?

I dunno! Maybe actual units that fought in those areas? ;)


Back to the topic, regarding the blue uniforms on Confederates, possibly gray uniforms on Federals .... Unlike in this game where everyone is running around pretty much on their own accord, during the war, those units dressed in differing colors were usually intermingled with a vast larger group of others not wearing the same discordant colors.

Yes there are records of blue on blue fire on both sides, like here in the game due to smoke and dust and distance, and people being where they ought not ... that's what causes the most blue on blue.

And I agree, uniform colors shouldn't change or be "highlighted" in some fashion to indicate sides ...

7822

[Maximus Decimus Meridius]

please don't hate but i have a crazy idea:

use the color bearer and stay with him ;)

Once the flag bearer is a spawn point nobody want to miss him and will use it so I hope the colors of uniforms dont get a rework. Friendly fire and mistakes were part of the war. Just think on 1st Manassas.
The colors had historically multiple tasks and function and one was to identify a regiment so let them do their work.

[Hinkel]

Who would replace the 12th South Carolina on the maps they are present?

There will be new units added, which replace the 12th South Carolina.

Like they will get replaced on the Sunken Road skirmish area by another, new historical unit *tease* :)

[Shiloh]

There will be new units added, which replace the 12th South Carolina.

Like they will get replaced on the Sunken Road skirmish area by another, new historical unit *tease* :)

My guess would be a North Carolina or Alabama regiment. 6th Alabama?

General Lee arrived to investigate and was told by Col. John B Gordon of the 6th Alabama that, "The men are going to stay here, General, till the sun goes down or victory is won!" By the end of the fight, Gordon was wounded six times, knocked out, and fell into his hat, which was filling with his own blood. Gordon would survive only because a hole had been blown into the hat, allowing the blood to drain.

[Dutchconfederate]

“The men that held the centre could die, but they could not fly”

Cullen A. Battle, commander of the 3rd Alabama writes proudly of the men who carried the regiment’s colors

[Saris]

My guess would be a North Carolina or Alabama regiment. 6th Alabama?

General Lee arrived to investigate and was told by Col. John B Gordon of the 6th Alabama that, "The men are going to stay here, General, till the sun goes down or victory is won!" By the end of the fight, Gordon was wounded six times, knocked out, and fell into his hat, which was filling with his own blood. Gordon would survive only because a hole had been blown into the hat, allowing the blood to drain.

6th Alabama is already a unit in the game, they came with the confederate drill camp.

My guess is another Alabama or North Carolina unit since they fought in the Bloody Lane the most

[A. P. Hill]

I suggest a visit to This Map (https://www.civilwar.org/learn/maps/antietam-sunken-road-900am-1200pm) for an overview of units involved at Bloody Lane.

;)

[Hinkel]

I suggest a visit to This Map (https://www.civilwar.org/learn/maps/antietam-sunken-road-900am-1200pm) for an overview of units involved at Bloody Lane.

;)

Ohh, I can see the new unit there :p

[Profender]

Or these

http://antietam.aotw.org/maps.php?map_number=main

[Saris]

Or these

http://antietam.aotw.org/maps.php?map_number=main

^^^ yes

[Shiloh]

Since there's already an Alabama unit in the game my guess would be North Carolina... maybe the 30th since they anchored the right against Meagher's Irish troops and the 69th is currently in-game on the Union side. OR the devs could just tell us and satisfy our curiosity. :D

[A. P. Hill]

... OR the devs could just tell us and satisfy our curiosity. :D

They will. When they release it. ;)

[McMuffin]

They will. When they release it. ;)

Well, that's just maddeningly unhelpful.

[A. P. Hill]

Well, that's just maddeningly unhelpful.

7823

[Valk]

Lets hope that we see what unit will be added, lets hope that it will be in the next patch :)

[A. P. Hill]

Could this inspire another "Fighting Men of WoR"? :)

[JohnDewitt]

I can only speak for my experience on the CSA side, I play Union only to balance teams or in certain events.



Sunken road : some of us wear 12th Carolina uniforms (blue), it's fine when staying in line but in a charge of coming in from spawn (certainly when Union are in the corn) you probably get friendly lead balls going your way.
Pry Grist Mill : the mill itself can be a deathtrap if players don't know who holds a certain floor, also a uniform problem for some.
Sunken road & Hooker's push : these are big maps and it's hard to tell at range who's who (for the cap it's simple to know who has it ... press 'T')
Wood maps : the CSA is forming up on certain points lately to push forward, before we had units pushing over cap and coming back ... and get shot. (think bot faction has certain points to form up)
Corn maps : it get's way messy if there aren't any lines (or officer lead) or when units are further up.



To be honest, Sunken Road & Hooker's Push TK's can be avoided if you fly your colors. The corn and wooded maps are very difficult. The only thing you can do there is to stick close to your unit.

[McMuffin]

To be honest, Sunken Road & Hooker's Push TK's can be avoided if you fly your colors. The corn and wooded maps are very difficult. The only thing you can do there is to stick close to your unit.

Most people do not do that because right now it serves no purpose, and in Hooker's Push, it will give away your position.

[Redleader]

Most people do not do that because right now it serves no purpose, and in Hooker's Push, it will give away your position.

Fact, we even hold fire since the muzzle flashes give away our position ... we usually avoid TK's there cause we are/or are not on cap (if we press 'T' we can tell).
When charges happen (like at the rocks/fence/Union side of cap) it gets harder :)

In Bloody Lane it's the uniforms mostly and the limited sight in corn/forest and like John said : better stay close to your own unit and hope other units are informed :)

[JohnDewitt]

Most people do not do that because right now it serves no purpose, and in Hooker's Push, it will give away your position.

It does serve a purpose. Not TK'ing.

[McMuffin]

It does serve a purpose. Not TK'ing.

Well then it does not work very well because a lot of people are not using it, even experienced units.

[JohnDewitt]

Well then it does not work very well because a lot of people are not using it, even experienced units.

This is more of a mindset problem though. Of course, someone has to sacrifice themselves and do the boring job of carrying a flag around. Most of the experienced units I've seen are of the opinion they'd rather have another rifle and overestimate their ability to recognize friend from foe. Now this may be true, but what they do not put into the equation is other people recognizing them as friendlies too. Carrying colors isn't about you identifying others but others identifying you. If you don't carry colors then you are that much more susceptible to being shot at by friendlies or even being volleyed.

[McMuffin]

This is more of a mindset problem though. Of course, someone has to sacrifice themselves and do the boring job of carrying a flag around. Most of the experienced units I've seen are of the opinion they'd rather have another rifle and overestimate their ability to recognize friend from foe. Now this may be true, but what they do not put into the equation is other people recognizing them as friendlies too. Carrying colors isn't about you identifying others but others identifying you. If you don't carry colors then you are that much more susceptible to being shot at by friendlies or even being volleyed.

You're further proving my point, most experienced units and units, in general, would prefer to have a rifle than a giant flag that would give away their position and the element of surprise. The chances of entire units firing on each other and massacring each other or one in specific are pretty small, I have only seen it twice in my whole 210 hours of playing the game.

[John Jones]

Fresh from a skirmish on Hookers Push - there were four or five TK's on the Union side. Most were caused by skirmishers being up in the rocks on the right and fresh troops coming through the corn didn't identify them as friendly. This is likely to be an experience thing, a case of wanting to shoot something rather than wait for clear target identification. Sadly I managed to kill a friendly in a melee as I stabbed at a Reb who was already being engaged. I hit the Reb but only after pushing my bayonet through a friendly's back (sorry Duke!). I keep forgetting that we can now TK with bayonets and perhaps that is another reason for the increase in TKs.

[LJPII]

"Friendly Fire" is authentic, and a reality of warfare. There are many true life examples of friendly fire in the Civil War. There are examples of whole units mistaking other units as either friendlies or enemies, and paying for it. There are also examples of individuals "fragging" (to use a Vietnam War era term) fellow soldiers, as well as officers, in the Civil War. So, while it sucks, it's authentic.

[LJPII]

http://www.historynet.com/murder-in-the-civil-war.htm

[McMuffin]

"Friendly Fire" is authentic, and a reality of warfare. There are many true life examples of friendly fire in the Civil War. There are examples of whole units mistaking other units as either friendlies or enemies, and paying for it. There are also examples of individuals "fragging" (to use a Vietnam War era term) fellow soldiers, as well as officers, in the Civil War. So, while it sucks, it's authentic.

The post was made because, while I wholeheartedly agree with friendly fire being authentic, we have seen a drastic surge in teamkilling so I was explaining why I thought the surge was occurring and let some others give their opinion also.

[JaegerCoyote]

Miller's corn field is definitely a tk paradise, I noted one confederate tk twice in a game. Flags and using proper formations will help with tks until Hell lets loose and there is confusion.

[Sox]

I know it's an old thread but.....Over the past week I've noticed the disasterous effects that melee has. TKing does happen from firing, but it's rare, once in melee however it's appaling. I agree that friendly fire was a part and parcel of combat in the Civil War, but stabbing someone by accident? that's kind of hard to swallow. Most of the time it's due to FPS etc, and I KNOW some people do spam that button once they're in melee but I'd still like to ask, is if there is any way to remove friendly fire from Melee?

[Shiloh]

I'm convinced some don't care about the issue of T'king as much as some of us do so stab like crazy when in a fray without first looking at what they're stabbing at. There needs to be some control with it.

[Hinkel]

and I KNOW some people do spam that button once they're in melee but I'd still like to ask, is if there is any way to remove friendly fire from Melee?

Like you said, without friendly fire, people would just stab like crazy.
Removing it would make it even more arcade, because you don't need to watch out.

[A. P. Hill]

IMHO, I think we may experience a rise with this issue, as players who are wanting to play one side, and one side only, are "forced" to a side they'd rather not play, so they start wasting tickets on the side they don't want to be on, thinking this may hurry that particular skirmish along so they think they have a better chance of getting back to their side of choice sooner.

Just something to consider.

[McMuffin]

IMHO, I think we may experience a rise with this issue, as players who are wanting to play one side, and one side only, are "forced" to a side they'd rather not play, so they start wasting tickets on the side they don't want to be on, thinking this may hurry that particular skirmish along so they think they have a better chance of getting back to their side of choice sooner.

Just something to consider.


Most likely yes, I've seen multiple groups do this because they 'want to play on the other side' and so the ones stuck on the union run over and start shooting at their own team as if they were confederates, same goes for the other way around.

[Sox]

Removing it would make it even more arcade, because you don't need to watch out.

Well that was my point, kind of, you can't 'watch out' because most of the time you have no idea who you are fighting. Once the suppression kicks in and you loose color, well, you all know what that's like. With the player base you have at the moment most of the men take care, when firing their weapons, not to hit comrades. In melee, no matter how much care you take, it's almost impossible not to hurt a friendly. It's not JUST about the game mechanics either, as I'm sure you are aware lag, differing FPS etc, all play a part.

We are in closed Alpha, the people here now have paid a lot of money JUST to be here, and we still get griefers. Imagine what this will be like once you get the 'regular' players in WoR. With the system you have in place it will be almost impossible to ban people for team killing, because it happens all too easily by pure accident. The 'purist' in me would like to see the feature stay, I'm very aware that friendly fire happened in the Civil War. The 'gamer' in me however, realises that you are building a rod for your own back here, if you put a feature in a game that can be 'exploited' then players will exploit it, NO question. Friendly fire adds realism, but even now, when your players largely co-operate with the system, it detracts from the gameplay. Once you have players in the game who will kill their comrades 'for fun', or just because they don't care, you'll be in a lot of trouble. In my honest opinion, the minuses outweigh the pluses, while you could 'possibly' sort out a griefer who is shooting his comrades, you'll never be able to do this with melee.

[Poorlaggedman]

Griefers are gonna be a huge problem compared to what they are now, no doubt of that. TKing is the most obvious thing, not the most damaging though. We had a guy running around hitting each player once with the butt of his rifle a couple weeks ago on Pry Ford. There's definitely been a surge due to the autoswitch which is another reason why I dislike it. In my experience the players separated from their units are always reluctant AF and half the time they're still in voice comms with the other team leaving the potential for spying on them or spying for them. It just makes everything a headache. It's mostly accidents right now. Meelee is wonky.

I put in my server host questions thread (I'll have to revive it soon) a request for admins to see all team damage in their console or even have a separate page (like the player 'rating' page) which shows their team damage inflicted in that round, even if they reconnect and come back if possible. It's nothing for a troll to reconnect just before they hit the limit and come back. Meanwhile honest players retaliate and are autobanned. There was a guy in my last community that did this incessantly and came back every time someone started a new server where he wasn't banned. He was around for five years and that's all he did. So transparency of trolling is important so it can be dealt with. There also has to be an ability to set a TK auto ban system (as opposed to kick). Things like the limit and specifics really need to be server-side to allow for special cases. I definitely don't like forgiving systems, many people will forgive instantly and always expect to be forgiven while they'll be no less reckless. Auto kicks and Auto bans teach people to grow and change their behavior.

[Sox]

I put in my server host questions thread (I'll have to revive it soon) a request for admins to see all team damage in their console or even have a separate page (like the player 'rating' page) which shows their team damage inflicted in that round,

As players, we can see the amount of damage being done, as you know TK's come up in the chat box. In just a single assault on Sunday night, the second we closed with the Union, at least seven lines of TK's popped one after the other, I even saw Trusty get tk'd at least twice. It's obvious it's out of control.

But I do believe there is a compromise. When firing your weapon it is fairly easy to avoid a team kill, in a little over a week of playing WoR I've only shot one friendly, and only because he jumped a fence directly in front of me as I fired. At distance you can't always tell if a target is enemy or friendly...simple solution? do not fire. I honestly see no problem with having friendly fire on with ranged weapons, once the game is released it will be easy to sort a griefer who is shooting his comrades. In my opinion, melee is a different kettle of fish. You simply do not have to time to sort friend from foe, and especially not once the color drops out due to exhaustion or supression. When I asked if friendly fire could be turned off in melee I was told by a Dev to 'take more care'. That's all very well, but in that split second I'm taking care, the Yankee facing me has NO problem killing me because my uniform is clearly southern, or he can clearly see the color of my uniform because he's not supressed, or because his FPS has not dropped through the floor. Added to all of this, is the fact that once the game is live you will have no way of banning a griefer due to the myriad of reasons that in melee it is easy to make a simple mistake and kill a friend.

So there you have it, my opinion, for what it's worth. I believe that when designing a game there comes a time when realism has to take a back seat, and in WoR I think that friendly fire in melee is it.

[TrustyJam]

As players, we can see the amount of damage being done, as you know TK's come up in the chat box. In just a single assault on Sunday night, the second we closed with the Union, at least seven lines of TK's popped one after the other, I even saw Trusty get tk'd at least twice. It's obvious it's out of control.

But I do believe there is a compromise. When firing your weapon it is fairly easy to avoid a team kill, in a little over a week of playing WoR I've only shot one friendly, and only because he jumped a fence directly in front of me as I fired. At distance you can't always tell if a target is enemy or friendly...simple solution? do not fire. I honestly see no problem with having friendly fire on with ranged weapons, once the game is released it will be easy to sort a griefer who is shooting his comrades. In my opinion, melee is a different kettle of fish. You simply do not have to time to sort friend from foe, and especially not once the color drops out due to exhaustion or supression. When I asked if friendly fire could be turned off in melee I was told by a Dev to 'take more care'. That's all very well, but in that split second I'm taking care, the Yankee facing me has NO problem killing me because my uniform is clearly southern, or he can clearly see the color of my uniform because he's not supressed, or because his FPS has not dropped through the floor. Added to all of this, is the fact that once the game is live you will have no way of banning a griefer due to the myriad of reasons that in melee it is easy to make a simple mistake and kill a friend.

So there you have it, my opinion, for what it's worth. I believe that when designing a game there comes a time when realism has to take a back seat, and in WoR I think that friendly fire in melee is it.

I have yet to encounter a person telling me that they have been kicked off due to teamkilling when it wasn't on purpose (you get kicked after 3 TK's within a set period of time). This suggests to me that rooting out the griefers won't be a big problem. In the near future you will be temp banned instead of just kicked when breaking this rule. :)

We are looking into tk'ing when in a chaotic melee fight - you are correct a number of things play into this: lag, animations, suppression, etc. - most of all though it is because melee is a clusterfuck. It is not supposed to be pretty, it is supposed to be completely chaotic and very much a gamble to throw one self into. The real risk of being TK'ed is part of that gamble so we are not looking to remove friendly fire from melee.

- Trusty

[C. Moser]

I have yet to encounter a person telling me that they have been kicked off due to teamkilling when it wasn't on purpose (you get kicked after 3 TK's within a set period of time). This suggests to me that rooting out the griefers won't be a big problem. In the near future you will be temp banned instead of just kicked when breaking this rule. :)

We are looking into tk'ing when in a chaotic melee fight - you are correct a number of things play into this: lag, animations, suppression, etc. - most of all though it is because melee is a clusterfuck. It is not supposed to be pretty, it is supposed to be completely chaotic and very much a gamble to throw one self into. The real risk of being TK'ed is part of that gamble so we are not looking to remove friendly fire from melee.

- Trusty

True I can agree, but how do we punish the random trolls that like to purposely stab you once to wound you. I remember one time we had a guy on our team spamming voice trolling and saying stupid stuff and went up and down his teams line stabbing each person just to grief and wound them. And I am sure we all know how hard it is to play and function after being stabbed...….

[TrustyJam]

True I can agree, but how do we punish the random trolls that like to purposely stab you once to wound you. I remember one time we had a guy on our team spamming voice trolling and saying stupid stuff and went up and down his teams line stabbing each person just to grief and wound them. And I am sure we all know how hard it is to play and function after being stabbed...….

Ban or kick him when we support community hosted servers and you have admin powers.

If we catch griefers on the public servers we will ban them as well.

- Trusty

[Redleader]

We are looking into tk'ing when in a chaotic melee fight - you are correct a number of things play into this: lag, animations, suppression, etc. - most of all though it is because melee is a clusterfuck.
- Trusty


Honestly I like the chaos, it makes sense when seeing people with sharp deadly blades fighting.

To prevent TK's during melee :

Drills : melee charges can be drilled to charge together and get maximum effect (well like in real life … some models seem to run/charge faster then others :p)
When stabbed and not seeing straight/colors : press 'T' … if the name show above a player -> it's a buddy :p -> If not, stabby stabby !

When stabbed and not seeing straight/colors : fall back (move backwards) a bit into own lines to try and recover.


​
How to prevent getting stabbed/clubbed with rifle butts ?

Run and hope a line is reformed to shoot out the advancing line … life today -< fight tomorrow.
Don't get in close :)
Try and surrender … but some prisons aren't exactly summer camp.


Griefers : let the officers or people ingame know what's going in, if you have an recent Nvidia card you can record this by using Geforce experience. -> try and stay polite and not provoke that person or talk into / ignore him .. whatever works in that situation.

[Bivoj]

The chaos in melee is right and seems realistic, but again: melee should be chaotic, but RARE. Weak, shaken unit should fail to charge home and the charge should be repulsed; on the other hand weak and shaken unit recieving charge should retreat before contact is made.

Only units in similar shape and numbers should contact and melee.

[Kyle422]

You guys need to take it a bit more easy on this thread please. Trusty said a badword and that usually means you are prying at his patience.


- Kyle

[TrustyJam]

You guys need to take it a bit more easy on this thread please. Trusty said a badword and that usually means you are prying at his patience.


- Kyle

I used clusterfuck to highlight what a mess a melee engagement is in-game and most certainly would have been in real life as well.

Thanks for the consideration though. :P

- Trusty

[McMuffin]

I used clusterfuck to highlight what a mess a melee engagement is in-game and most certainly would have been in real life as well.

Thanks for the consideration though. :P

- Trusty


Clusterfuck is a tactical term.

[John Cooley]

Clusterfuck is a tactical term.
Which is usually followed by the Charging Yell of ... BOHICA

[Kyle422]

I used clusterfuck to highlight what a mess a melee engagement is in-game and most certainly would have been in real life as well.

Thanks for the consideration though. :P

- Trusty

I know what you meant, I was just kinda being a smartass lol ;)

[Easty]

Haven't seen much team killing besides misfires or fog of war.

[TheRegulator]

Hold the line in ranks... Mele charge/attacks ... Hold the line in the ranks. It will reduce the TK much ... People mostly just run off and stab left and right ... So use the tactics of the time. One straight line moving forward. Keep your position in the line and push the enemie that way.

[Bivoj]

Hold the line in ranks... Mele charge/attacks ... Hold the line in the ranks. It will reduce the TK much ... People mostly just run off and stab left and right ... So use the tactics of the time. One straight line moving forward. Keep your position in the line and push the enemie that way.

Your “advice” is nearly impossible in game as it should be - charge/melee in real battle is not a parade ground excercise. Even the best veteran units failed to charge in order and melee was (according to Friedrich the Great’s notes) chaotic mess, where commanders lost control over their men.

[sal_tuskin]

as was said it is very hard in game cause of the first person view as you can only see about 70 deg view where as in rl you have almost 150 deg, in game you have no idea where the next person in line is unless you are a bit behind then there goes your line
it may work in drill camp just fine but this game is not drill camp not even close thats where most of these problems come from you need to drill in the real game

[McMuffin]

Hold the line in ranks... Mele charge/attacks ... Hold the line in the ranks. It will reduce the TK much ... People mostly just run off and stab left and right ... So use the tactics of the time. One straight line moving forward. Keep your position in the line and push the enemie that way.

This may be possible when advancing, but when you are about 10 meters from the enemy, a formation will fall apart quickly since people start deviating and going to their own targets or just naturally work how a crowd works. Crowds of people generally don't stay very organized when running.

[TheRegulator]

This may be possible when advancing, but when you are about 10 meters from the enemy, a formation will fall apart quickly since people start deviating and going to their own targets or just naturally work how a crowd works. Crowds of people generally don't stay very organized when running.

Thats the point .... Hold the line ... Move as a wall of steel in closed ranks. Its a matter of drill and people following orders constant ! And it defently effective, preventing TK in mele. And rather impressive/scary to the enemie ... If you can provoke the enemie to go forward in disorder to mele, half the fight is won.

Your responsible for your mate right and left to you in the rank. If you fail then the line disolves into carnage and disorder ... So hold your position and hold the line.

[Warboy]

[And rather impressive/scary to the enemie ... If you can provoke the enemie to go forward in disorder to mele, half the fight is won.[/QUOTE]

Lol, yeah really scary when you form that nice neat line, march up to us in 'QUICK TIME' like just madness and getting decimated every time in your nice neat 'scary line'. some want to play their fancy line battles but impossible if other side doesn't agree to it but some groups don't care about that regardless and they suffer for it on the field.

Right now with the mechanics the way they are and most people's play style, all that your line does is make you look pretty and keep your deaths to in-formation, however those csa deaths behind structure(fence) are in-formation too, you just would never win that dual.
keep the drilling and roleplaying in the drill camps unless it's a trailer or reenactment sort-of event that the devs have planned. imo
lol it actually reminds of the scene in the film 'Gettysburg' where Gen John Buford said 'we will die valiantly and be BUTCHERED valiantly'

[TheRegulator]

Lol, yeah really scary when you form that nice neat line, march up to us in 'QUICK TIME' like just madness and getting decimated every time in your nice neat 'scary line'.


Its to easy a conclusion ... If you choose to mele attack, then under the right conditions. Its not to be used as a headless kinda "Heroic" attack. You value the enemie force, and wait for the right moment.
Its all connected to the situation, your awareness about the battelfield, and a lot more ...

[Sox]

Thats the point .... Hold the line ... Move as a wall of steel in closed ranks. Its a matter of drill and people following orders constant ! And it defently effective, preventing TK in mele. And rather impressive/scary to the enemie ... If you can provoke the enemie to go forward in disorder to mele, half the fight is won.

Your responsible for your mate right and left to you in the rank. If you fail then the line disolves into carnage and disorder ... So hold your position and hold the line.

The thing I love most of all about WoR is the way that the Devs have put in place so much that makes the game mirror reality. So here's the thing about what you are saying: did those tactics work at Fredericksburg? did those tactics work at Malvern Hill? and did those tactics work for Pickett on that fateful third day at Gettysburg? Frontal assaults in formation get wrecked in WoR, and quite rightly so. I was there too yesterday, and saw that Union regiment get decimated as they tried to manouver in formation in front of a Confederate firing line. You can move and fight in line of course, but trying to do so like you are on parade?......result = bloodbath.

[TheRegulator]

The thing I love most of all about WoR is the way that the Devs have put in place so much that makes the game mirror reality. So here's the thing about what you are saying: did those tactics work at Fredericksburg? did those tactics work at Malvern Hill? and did those tactics work for Pickett on that fateful third day at Gettysburg? Frontal assaults in formation get wrecked in WoR, and quite rightly so. I was there too yesterday, and saw that Union regiment get decimated as they tried to manouver in formation in front of a Confederate firing line. You can move and fight in line of course, but trying to do so like you are on parade?......result = bloodbath.

Who is talking about manouvers right in front of the enemie ... As in any war now and then, use the 3 F's. Find them ... Fix them ... Flank them. One Company fix/engage the enemie on long range. 2 Companies manouvers around on flank left and right, using the advantage of the terrain ... There is a lot more into doing it, but its basicly the way to do it. It will naturally be a faliure, if you mele head on with one combined force.

When atillery comes into the game, then it will add a lot of deaths, to an enemie holding a position, being shelled and cought in cross fire from front, left and right ...

Its about holding a point in game, so you must ither attack or defend, push the enemie away ... I dont belive in longs shoot outs ;O)

[Maximus Decimus Meridius]

I think some teamkills happen because some people dont check their fire. Teamkills also happen when the rear rank has buck and ball loaded and the gaps in the front rank are not big enough.

[TrustyJam]

This thread is about the teamkills not how certain people conduct themselves (unless that is directly tied to the teamkills).

Please keep it on-topic, thank you.

- Trusty

[Redleader]

I think some teamkills happen because some people dont check their fire. Teamkills also happen when the rear rank has buck and ball loaded and the gaps in the front rank are not big enough.

GOOD POINT : we let people shoot over the shoulder of the person in front, but buck 'n ball seems to have a certain spread :)
PEEKING AND SHOOTING : what also happens is people are stacked up in a fence/position ... and to shoot they move out ... just in front of another person @ the worst timing :)

[Warboy]

^^^^Agreed, I was team killed 3 separate times from all of us being in close proximity to buildings peaking around while aiming and I accidentally move in the way at worst time. Guess the best way is to not have more than 3-4 guys together and agree with each other to take turns, one or two aim at most then fire and the other two's turn after when they reload.

[Sox]

There are ways to avoid it yes, I see SO many people cross in front of a formed firing line, so many people running back directly towards a formed line, it's almost as if some players have not yet realised that quite a lot of massed rifle firing takes place in WoR lol. I'd say that most of the TK's from rifle fire do come from avoidable mistakes yes.

[A. P. Hill]

You can't aim your weapon through the body of a compatriot and expect him to live when you pull the trigger. :D