One problem with the Last Stand mechanic

[Poorlaggedman]

It feels like an improvement to the old system where rounds suddenly ended without warning when a team broke.

That being said the functionality of the mode effectively changes the rules of the game in that how you die no longer matters. This goes for the attacker and the defender. It's as if the game suddenly says "You know those rules you were going by, well they don't matter any more to the team that breaks." Yes there is an urgency put into place for the defender to not die and the attacker to move quickly but, especially for the attacker, it's like the old rules are dissolves. It also effectively dissolves the incentives to play in the style the main game encourages.

Now I think the team morale system is barking up the wrong tree in the first place and that all the incentive should be on the individual player and not by punishing the team score. But at the same time it doesn't make a whole heckuva lot of sense the way the last stand functions as a competitive and realistic game. A "final push" team has effectively been relieved of the old rules that were supposed to hold the team together.

I thought I'd point this out since nobody has yet.

[Sox]

I've seen it work, I think, as intended. We were put into last stand while defending Bloody Lane, and it really did look like our position was being over run. The Union troops came flooding over the fences, giving the bayonet to anyone who had not 'fled' by that point. Where the system falls down, in my opinion, is when both sides go into Last Stand & Final Push at the same time, then it just devolves like PoorLagged said. I think it would better suit the mechanics if, when both teams are at Last Stand & Final Push at the same time, the match would end in a draw.

[Sgt.Nightfire]

Biggest problem Last Stand has is that people from the defending team can just hide in the main spawn and do not get the "fall back to the point or die in 59 seconds". People know this now and hide in the main spawn where on most maps the enemy can't get too.

[TrustyJam]

Biggest problem Last Stand has is that people from the defending team can just hide in the main spawn and do not get the "fall back to the point or die in 59 seconds". People know this now and hide in the main spawn where on most maps the enemy can't get too.

People can’t hide in main spawn. There is a hidden timer of a few minutes when last stand is triggered before the on-screen timer of 60 seconds kicks in. This may lead some to believe they can do so but everyone will get the desertion timer of 60 seconds.

- Trusty

[Oleander]

One of my biggest issues with Final Push is it just becomes a massive charge fest. Even if the defending team is still at Taking Losses or above the amount of endless charging can be enough to knock morale down to Last Stand, and I don't think that's necessarily fair to a team that has worked together for a whole match. I also don't think it is fair that Last Stand gets no respawns while Final Push gets infinite. Maybe give Last Stand a separate 2 minute timer to hold the point with unlimited respawns. This hunting down every last defender when you know you have no penalty other than a time limit seems unbalanced.

[Poorlaggedman]

I don't really have a specific solution and I'm not recommending anything reverting. The sudden-loss from Breaking never felt very pleasing or finished and this is better. I'm just saying if the lions share of benefits to your formation status are for the team and only the team, it comes apart at the seems during the end-game events.

[Poorlaggedman]

When both trigger it's basically like Zombies vs Humans

[Sox]

I'm just saying if the lions share of benefits to your formation status are for the team and only the team, it comes apart at the seems during the end-game events.

But that does kind of make sense. When we get put into Last Stand (I despise that term, it should be called routing) I imagine that our men finally broke and are heading to the rear, with a few brave souls still standing their ground. So at that point I think that it is more of an 'every man for himself' situation.

[Poorlaggedman]

In any case where you're on your last 'life,' players will behave differently. The problem is that most of the deterrence mechanics have to do with the team score. You don't die out of line because of the team score. Is there suppression affects when you're out-of-line? Yes. But that alone doesn't do the trick as well because it's not punitive enough. The main reason for deterrence goes away during last stand. The attacker rushes in like mad (certainly not acting like a broken team).

It get's tricky when you get down to the depletion of a team's tickets in any game. You don't want both teams just digging in and the round becoming a bore fest but I don't think you want a mad free-for-all either.

I wouldn't say it represents a team routing. Just a defender not getting reinforced (literally). So it would almost make more sense for the objective to progress at that point to a fallback one, forcing the remaining defenders to fight a delaying action, lifting the desertion zones protecting the defender's base spawn. The defender can defend the main one, but they can also be driven back. The purpose becomes to degrade the victory of the attacking team. In almost any defensive situation where you're bled dry you would want to salvage something from it and reduce the enemy gains even if only for a short period of time. That would tie into a more complex win/loss system. Heck... maybe if the defender holds on to the fallback point long enough a fresh regiment arrives and the defender gets to counterattack and the former attacker has to hold their gains. Scenario-specific goals.

[Vulcarin]

People can’t hide in main spawn. There is a hidden timer of a few minutes when last stand is triggered before the on-screen timer of 60 seconds kicks in. This may lead some to believe they can do so but everyone will get the desertion timer of 60 seconds.

- Trusty

Hi Trusty,
We had an issue on Nicodemus Hill playing as union last night where we put the enemy to last stand and they all ran to spawn and we as union were on point capping with about 3:30 minutes left in game. The CSA went up to spawn or very near it, and sat there, no where near the point and were not dying from the timer of not being on cap point. We ended up losing due to this even though we were in complete control of the cap. we were unable to get up to their spawn to finish off their last players. can you elaborate on this and let me know if we are missing something here? i do have it videoed so if you would like to see what i saw, let me know.

Vulcarin

[TrustyJam]

Hi Trusty,
We had an issue on Nicodemus Hill playing as union last night where we put the enemy to last stand and they all ran to spawn and we as union were on point capping with about 3:30 minutes left in game. The CSA went up to spawn or very near it, and sat there, no where near the point and were not dying from the timer of not being on cap point. We ended up losing due to this even though we were in complete control of the cap. we were unable to get up to their spawn to finish off their last players. can you elaborate on this and let me know if we are missing something here? i do have it videoed so if you would like to see what i saw, let me know.

Vulcarin

Hi there!

Please do send over the video, thank you. :)

- Trusty

[Ted E. Bear]

I also have video, from another map where one guy was afk in the union spawn for quite sometime and the confederates couldnt kill him so we won. will be uploading later today

[AlexBloodworth]

Hi there!

Please do send over the video, thank you. :)

- Trusty

Some context, his team had no business winning that match. Last stand is flawed in many ways.

[Redleader]

Hi there!

Please do send over the video, thank you. :)

- Trusty

From the CSA perspective on that map :
- approx. 3 min left on map -> enemy was already on final push,
- enemy would not be able to cap in time since they where just attacking cap again (en masse)
- we where breaking so we fell back, during that maneuver we went to last stand.
- It took like a minute before the warning about defending the cap kicked in (59 secs, and the match was done for on 43 seconds)

[TrustyJam]

From the CSA perspective on that map :
- approx. 3 min left on map -> enemy was already on final push,
- enemy would not be able to cap in time since they where just attacking cap again (en masse)
- we where breaking so we fell back, during that maneuver we went to last stand.
- It took like a minute before the warning about defending the cap kicked in (59 secs, and the match was done for on 43 seconds)

It actually takes two minutes before the 60 sec timer kicks in - we'll probably just show the timer as soon as last stand is activated in the near future to avoid confusion.

We will likely reduce the 60 second desertion timer during last stand as it is currently being exploited by the defender by running back to the safe area when less than 60 seconds remain of the game.

Thank you for the information. :)

- Trusty

[AlexBloodworth]

Maybe it isn’t last stand/final push but when these events are triggered. The final score was 488 to 290.

[LaBelle]

Am I the only one who just doesn't like the last stand/final push concept? It doesn't mesh well with the game as it's played right now.

[Warboy]

Am I the only one who just doesn't like the last stand/final push concept? It doesn't mesh well with the game as it's played right now.

^^^ agreed your not the only one

[Oleander]

I think its safe to say that it isn't accomplishing what it was intended for and is creating more problems than it solves.

[Galahad]

Am I the only one who just doesn't like the last stand/final push concept? It doesn't mesh well with the game as it's played right now.

I understand what the dev's were trying to do but I have to admit I can't stand it. Regardless of which side I'm o. I also dread when I see both teams enter it together on any given map

[LaBelle]

I also dread when I see both teams enter it together on any given map

I think a more reasonable approach would be to place BOTH teams into last stand with a shrinking cap zone visualized to some extent. Almost, dare I say it, like the circle of a battle royale game. It would force both teams to contest a given point while denying either team a concrete defensive position.

Otherwise, last stand/final push just robs either team of a hard fought victory.

[Galahad]

I would tend to agree 100%. The way I understood it was the last stand/final push was introduced to bring closure to a team that played poorly throughout the match. As stated above you might have both teams in breaking and the attackers go into final push as the defenders are still in breaking. Now the onslaught of the final push puts the defenders into last stand and they subsequently lose by being killed on the cap point (which most tend to offer little cover or are easily found). I don't see how that could be considered a righteous win.

Don't get me wrong I still love the game and these are more concerns of mine and others I've spoken with in regards to this game mode. I don't have any suggestions on how to fix it unfortunately but I do feel that looking at the last stand part by itself as the problem is a tad one sided. If anything the whole concept needs to be looked at and not just one part.

My 2 cents anyway

[Oleander]

The bug with defenders able to camp in spawn happened on the 1st TX server a few minutes ago. The guy was literally AFK for 5 minutes in Last Stand and didn't die. Map was Miller's Cornfield.

[TrustyJam]

The bug with defenders able to camp in spawn happened on the 1st TX server a few minutes ago. The guy was literally AFK for 5 minutes in Last Stand and didn't die. Map was Miller's Cornfield.

You are able to be out of the capture area for 3 minutes before getting killed for desertion when you are a defender during last stand.

Are you certain the player was alive for longer than this after last stand had triggered?

- Trusty

[Leo]

I think there is a little problem of balance with the last stand mechanic. In my opinion there is a big disadvantage for the team on last stand.
If the game has been even and you both get on late game event at the same time or even if you pushed the enemy in final push a minute before getting in last stand there is constraints making defenders likely to lose the game.

First you have the no respawn mechanic. I think this is the main issue because with the 3 to 4 (cant remember exactly) minutes the attackers have in final push they have more than enough time to do a few volleys (or a charge), to wait for respawner and then win the game by charging very weakened defenders, it looks a bit like a free win while the whole game has been even. And this probleme can also be seen if the final push comes a minute before last stand 2 to 3 minute is also enough to put pressure before having an actual final charge to the point.
As a defender you also have to stick on point which is not always the best position to defend then you leave strong positions to the enemy and the possibility for them to flank or circle you without being able to counter it. The high pressure leads people to use exploit to actualy be able to win.

Last stand have 2 limitation : position and respawn and Final Push only : time ( and well capture but in even game you usualy try to kill everybody and not to capture ). I think you should either have a non respawn mechanic for final push too or put a much lower time so they can still gather and have a last charge without being able to pressure before.

(sorry if there's some mistakes english isn't my native language)

[Oleander]

You are able to be out of the capture area for 3 minutes before getting killed for desertion when you are a defender during last stand.

Are you certain the player was alive for longer than this after last stand had triggered?

- Trusty

I don't remember for certain, but it was a fairly long time. They were at last Stand before we started capping and the cap was nearly 3/4 ours before we finally shot him in spawn. I should also mention they fully held the cap before we moved in.

[TrustyJam]

I don't remember for certain, but it was a fairly long time. They were at last Stand before we started capping and the cap was nearly 3/4 ours before we finally shot him in spawn. I should also mention they fully held the cap before we moved in.

Thanks for the info. :)

The desertion timer will be tweaked and the hidden timer will be visible in the next update which should lead to a much tougher time of cheesing the system and less confusion.

We've also fixed a potential bug regarding the last stand event where you may be allowed to spawn during last stand but not be tied to the desertion system if joining the server at a specific time. This too is part of the next update.

- Trusty

[Oleander]

We've also fixed a potential bug regarding the last stand event where you may be allowed to spawn during last stand but not be tied to the desertion system if joining the server at a specific time. This too is part of the next update.

- Trusty

I think we encountered that as well, I remember someone saying a guy spawned in behind the one that was AFK. It probably isn't a bug, just someone sitting on the deployment menu when last stand occurs and spawning in later.

[TrustyJam]

I think we encountered that as well, I remember someone saying a guy spawned in behind the one that was AFK. It probably isn't a bug, just someone sitting on the deployment menu when last stand occurs and spawning in later.

You are force-spawned when last stand happens. :)

- Trusty

[Galahad]

Just something I've observed since we are talking about it. If your in spectator mode before last stand starts, when last stand finally hits your body respawns at main and it gives the look as you being afk. But your really just flying around the map as you were doing before last stand.

Only learned this due to recording some gameplay and the team I was on went into last stand and everyone in chat was saying I was afk at spawn.

Outside of tweaking the timer is there anything else planned for last stand/final push? I'm only asking because of concerns that were raised above. At this time it sounds like even if the defenders are put into last stand after the attackers have been put into final push the defenders are getting the short end of the stick due to wave after wave of attackers being able to hunt down whatever defenders remain

[Poorlaggedman]

Attackers get excited too often when Last Stand Triggers. Most people don't realize that the defenders spawn one more time. Wiping out the whole enemy team just running in madly with musket butts is not that easy

[Leo]

Attackers get excited too often when Last Stand Triggers. Most people don't realize that the defenders spawn one more time. Wiping out the whole enemy team just running in madly with musket butts is not that easy

Are you sure about that ?

look at the update : "Defender reaches 0 morale: Last stand is activated. This means every dead person is spawned right away but no more respawns are available after. The round ends when the match timer runs out or the attacker has captured the area or killed all defenders."

It feels like if you are dead when you get on last stand you respawn but then no defender can spawn one more time

[Sgt.Nightfire]

Another bug i noticed that rarely occurs during last Stand as Attacker, is that it sees you as Defender and you get the timer you need to be in the point or you will die, even when you are in the point, you still die after the counter hit zero.

EDIT:

Here is a screenshot of the last guy AFK in the spawn during Last Stand, think i saw him standing there for like 10 minutes.

https://steamcommunity.com/id/sgtnightfire/screenshot/954105271815192487