In-game Artillery Facts / Questions / Concerns

[Dutchconfederate]

Facts


Too early to go into artillery specifics (progress is being made on its systems but do not expect it to be fully fleshed out when first released - it will be a long iterative process of adding additional features based on the feedback from you guys and our set targets for what we'd like it to support in terms of features).

The current plan is to have all pieces of the batteries in their historically correct positions be operational (meaning you yourself as a team are free to decide upon how many men you wish to have on artillery at any given point in time). This will increase the amount of different strategies available as well as allow you all to experience fully operational batteries should you so desire.

- Trusty

Definitely not expecting a fully fleshed system upon first release.
Interesting part is that everyone can jump on any artillery piece on the field at any time does that mean that in the current situation infantry will operate the pieces until the artillery class can be picked?
And the amount of men needed to operate a field piece in the first implementation of the system would be great to know.

No it means there is no planned cap on the amount of players that can spawn in under artillery branch (just as there is no cap on regular privates in the infantry branch).

I cannot give you an answer regarding needed players to operate a piece yet (it depends on which iteration of the initial arty mechanics we choose to make available so I can't give you an answer as I don't know).

- Trusty



Questions:

Matt Fridge:
- Are you implying there will not be an artillery specific class?

There will be a new branch with artillery specific classes (like Artillery officer and such). Hinkel

Enectin:
- Will indirect fire be a thing?
- How will range corrections be given?
- Will the artillerist get a weapon?
- Can you spike the guns?
- How will the aiming work?

Dutchconfederate:
- Will there be artillery pieces placed on the drill camp?

I am pretty sure, that there will be an artillery practice ground on the drill camp map.Hinkel

- Als concerning the aiming of the pieces will that go according the table of fire with elevation degrees?
- The current placing of the artillery pieces which information / maps where used?
I am trying to figure out these maps: http://antietam.aotw.org/maps.php?map_number=main according with the skirmish maps used in WoR

McMuffin:
- Will you update the company tool to be Battery friendly with sections?





Concerns:

Ted E. Bear:
- I would rather see 1 or 2 artillery crews moving from placed piece to placed piece to start out with, otherwise a line of cannons turns into a line of muskets with even bigger muskets to help them and would not need to be wary of their placement or exposed positions nearly as much.

[Hinkel]

Matt Fridge:
Are you implying there will not be an artillery specific class?


There will be a new branch with artillery specific classes (like Artillery officer and such).



Dutchconfederate:
Will there be artillery pieces placed on the drill camp?

I am pretty sure, that there will be an artillery practice ground on the drill camp map.

[Dutchconfederate]

Thanks for the information

Also this thread by McMuffin
https://www.warofrightsforum.com/showthread.php?6125-Artillery-Batteries

About editing the company tool voor batteries so 2 platoons and 4 sections can be made. Is that in the planning?

[SwingKid148]

Facts

- The current placing of the artillery pieces which information / maps where used?
I am trying to figure out these maps: http://antietam.aotw.org/maps.php?map_number=main according with the skirmish maps used in WoR
.

For maps of any battle, I always prefer the ABT maps:
https://www.battlefields.org/learn/civil-war/battles/antietam

[Poorlaggedman]

One thing you have to consider with static artillery batteries is that quite soon crews with any brain at all will know the azimuth and range to typical targets including other batteries.

Variable fuzes would be a necessity to avoid surreal predictability.

It’s not ‘will indirect fire be a thing,’ it will be guaranteed. A static battery on one side of the cornfield will require it to have any effect on the other side.


Also consider the purpose and reasoning for an artillery officer to even remain with the battery and not just act as a forward observer in a video game with easy comms galore. A relatively straightforward but gamey fix would involve desertion timers. Other players outside the role will still act as FOs. You’ll even have arty crew pose in as infantry (even officers) to do this.

Infantry private:#1 What’s the holdup for, what are we doing?
Infantry private:#2 Officer is adjusting fire

You could try things like limiting the in-game chat to be branch-specific but that only goes so far. Players could use steam or or discord or have a private stay with the battery for comms. There’s always a way around it. So yeah, indirect fire will be common depending on how effective the arty is and whether people even see benefit.

I for one don’t really give a rip about arty but obviously it’s coming. I’d trade a couple human-controlled guns to get rid of the random explosions any day of the week. I do hope the random explosions will go away. Maybe a server-side setting at least? Like the weather.


Let’s consider a typical map like Dunker Church as the Union team with static guns.

You spawn in and the tactics now include the arty. So you now have maybe one or two crews on each team but it’ll become an ‘if’ the enemy uses their arty as ways to nullify it are known and some maps they’re only use is for a few opportune canister shots by hiding crews waiting to pull a lanyard (if the guns can’t be spiked this will happen a lot).

Well it’s a given we’re sending a squad up the left to snipe up the reb arty’s flank.

The union arty really can’t be touched by rebel infantry on Dunker Church but will have to fire indirect. Can the fences be broken down in front or do they have to aim even higher and overshoot just to compensate?


Arty usefulness as a static product will vary wildly across scenarios. People super excited for it will grow disappointed expecting more than historical location use. Other people will be tired of explaining how one particular arty spot is totally useless and get tired of seeing crews draining the team in the team morale system.

[TrustyJam]

No one said the batteries were to be static. :)

- Trusty

[Charles Caldwell]

No one said the batteries were to be static. :)

- Trusty

I'll hold you to that! ;)

[TrustyJam]

I'll hold you to that! ;)

No one said they are to be mobile either. :P

- Trusty

[Vankovski]

What will the availability of ammo be like? More than enough for a round or limited so that you have to really decide when it's time to use certain shots?

[TrustyJam]

What will the availability of ammo be like? More than enough for a round or limited so that you have to really decide when it's time to use certain shots?

Too early to tell.

- Trusty

[Dutchconfederate]

Too early to tell.

- Trusty

Something the players can test themselves I presume.

[Leifr]

I think this thread is a little premature.

[Dutchconfederate]

I think this thread is a little premature.

Asking questions about upcoming features etc. Happens all the time. Always thought that was one of the purposes of a forum to talk about current and upcoming game stuff

[TrustyJam]

Asking questions about upcoming features etc. Happens all the time. Always thought that was one of the purposes of a forum to talk about current and upcoming game stuff

Of course. :)

Just be aware that we are not able to answer most of your questions currently (which is why I would imagine Leifr would believe the thread is a tad early).

- Trusty

[Leifr]

Asking questions about upcoming features etc. Happens all the time. Always thought that was one of the purposes of a forum to talk about current and upcoming game stuff

Of course friend, I wouldn't presume otherwise. However, Trusty has said in a couple of places now that there is absolutely nothing to report on regarding artillery. Feel free to kick around ideas but pitching direct questions (as in the OP) is fair too early - better to do so in a couple of months.

Well, as you were.

[EneCtin]

Just be aware that we are not able to answer most of your questions currently

Well, Mr. Trusty, you should, since it seems you've embarked on adding cavalry and artillery to the game, so a concept should have already been fleshed out.

It would be to your advantage, I believe, to have a healthy discussion on that concept and its impact on gameplay. By the time you guys get the first iteration to work, the community will have used its collective brainpower to your advantage, maybe in time to steer clear of loopholes.

At any rate, repeating ironic comments like "no one said it will be ..." should cease.

PS. why a few months until the first working model? Muppets can come later, it is innovative gameplay people are interested in.

[Dutchconfederate]

Well, Mr. Trusty, you should, since it seems you've embarked on adding cavalry and artillery to the game, so a concept should have already been fleshed out.

It would be to your advantage, I believe, to have a healthy discussion on that concept and its impact on gameplay. By the time you guys get the first iteration to work, the community will have used its collective brainpower to your advantage, maybe in time to steer clear of loopholes.

At any rate, repeating ironic comments like "no one said it will be ..." should cease.

Amen .

You can share your visions and ideas and we can understand those plans / ideas will be tweaked or adapted when tested in game or technical restrictions etc. I

[TrustyJam]

Well, Mr. Trusty, you should, since it seems you've embarked on adding cavalry and artillery to the game, so a concept should have already been fleshed out.

It would be to your advantage, I believe, to have a healthy discussion on that concept and its impact on gameplay. By the time you guys get the first iteration to work, the community will have used its collective brainpower to your advantage, maybe in time to steer clear of loopholes.

At any rate, repeating ironic comments like "no one said it will be ..." should cease.

PS. why a few months until the first working model? Muppets can come later, it is innovative gameplay people are interested in.

I disagree.

Yes, we have a concept that we are working towards.

That does not mean it being a good time to bring the community into a design discussion.

Once we have actual features done we’ll be ready to talk about them/have you test them/listen to your feedback and requests regarding them.


Until then we’d all be wasting our time discussing a list of target features where we have no clue if they ever will be doable in the first place. :)

I’m sorry you are troubled by me answering stuff without really answering stuff (this is because the mechanics are not ready to be discussed yet).

Feel free to post your arty suggestions (we read everything) but we won’t be going into details regarding arty just yet.

- Trusty

[Dutchconfederate]

I disagree.

Yes, we have a concept that we are working towards.

That does not mean it being a good time to bring the community into a design discussion.

Once we have actual features done we’ll be ready to talk about them/have you test them/listen to your feedback and requests regarding them.


Until then we’d all be wasting our time discussing a list of target features where we have no clue if they ever will be doable in the first place. :)

I’m sorry you are troubled by me answering stuff without really answering stuff (this is because the mechanics are not ready to be discussed yet).

Feel free to post your arty suggestions (we read everything) but we won’t be going into details regarding arty just yet.

- Trusty

Well thanks for the stuff that you did share. I will get some suggestions together and then leave this thread for what it us until you do have more to share.

[TrustyJam]

Well thanks for the stuff that you did share. I will get some suggestions together and then leave this thread for what it us until you do have more to share.

No worries! :)

The concept constantly changes as more work is put towards its implementation. So discussing it in detail with you guys currently would result in a lot of people being confused/let down, etc. by what it ends up being for the initial arty implementation.

- Trusty

[Matt(Fridge)]

No worries! :)

The concept constantly changes as more work is put towards its implementation. So discussing it in detail with you guys currently would result in a lot of people being confused/let down, etc. by what it ends up being for the initial arty implementation.

- Trusty

That makes sense. Just please give us some updates as you are making progress.

[Sox]

I've always had my doubts about artillery. I honestly cannot see a way to implement even one civil war artillery piece into the current game, not with the damage that they could do. I could imagine it, if the damage done was expressed as a debuff for Infantry, or a morale hit for example, but causing that amount of actual casualties? Maybe if we ever see 400 player servers.

[EneCtin]

One to several cannons would not be too effective if formulaic firing solutions can be avoided (like on this map, fire at sweetspot A, meaning a tad west of NNW, elevation 13degrees, etc etc.). This can be avoided by placing the cannons at random positions along the back of the map so that a few ranging shots are needed. Even then, it will be a chase of a moving target, again several shots to get the range. The target will move as soon as you've hit it or near it, so again a dead on salvo will not meet the target.

Sure, people could experiment and move canons to predetermined positions,, (crest of that small hill, turn the cannon to aim at that tree, and then aim sweetspot B4). In skirmish thoroughly known maps, canons would be too much of an advantage to the more experienced side. On fully random fights chosen from that big training map (location, rotation, spawn positions, spawn starting orientations,) well, there you'd have to work to effectively use your artillery

I almost feel like having just suppression for indirect canon fire and the occasional death while reserving full effectiveness for direct fire solutions, where the other team sees you reloading and has to choose if to evade or maintain position or attack you.

[adamjackson]

One thing you have to consider with static artillery batteries is that quite soon crews with any brain at all will know the azimuth and range to typical targets including other batteries.

Variable fuzes would be a necessity to avoid surreal predictability.

It’s not ‘will indirect fire be a thing,’ it will be guaranteed. A static battery on one side of the cornfield will require it to have any effect on the other side.


Also consider the purpose and reasoning for an artillery officer to even remain with the battery and not just act as a forward observer in a video game with easy comms galore. A relatively straightforward but gamey fix would involve desertion timers. Other players outside the role will still act as FOs. You’ll even have arty crew pose in as infantry (even officers) to do this.

Infantry private:#1 What’s the holdup for, what are we doing?
Infantry private:#2 Officer is adjusting fire

You could try things like limiting the in-game chat to be branch-specific but that only goes so far. Players could use steam or or discord or have a private stay with the battery for comms. There’s always a way around it. So yeah, indirect fire will be common depending on how effective the arty is and whether people even see benefit.

I for one don’t really give a rip about arty but obviously it’s coming. I’d trade a couple human-controlled guns to get rid of the random explosions any day of the week. I do hope the random explosions will go away. Maybe a server-side setting at least? Like the weather.


Let’s consider a typical map like Dunker Church as the Union team with static guns.

You spawn in and the tactics now include the arty. So you now have maybe one or two crews on each team but it’ll become an ‘if’ the enemy uses their arty as ways to nullify it are known and some maps they’re only use is for a few opportune canister shots by hiding crews waiting to pull a lanyard (if the guns can’t be spiked this will happen a lot). Best Solution for Assignment Writing (https://www.assignmentprime.com/) Problems in Australia

Well it’s a given we’re sending a squad up the left to snipe up the reb arty’s flank.

The union arty really can’t be touched by rebel infantry on Dunker Church but will have to fire indirect. Can the fences be broken down in front or do they have to aim even higher and overshoot just to compensate?


Arty usefulness as a static product will vary wildly across scenarios. People super excited for it will grow disappointed expecting more than historical location use. Other people will be tired of explaining how one particular arty spot is totally useless and get tired of seeing crews draining the team in the team morale system.

Are you implying there will not be an artillery specific class?

[LaBelle]

Are you implying there will not be an artillery specific class?

It's been confirmed that any class can man an artillery piece, but there will be artillery units in game.

[TrustyJam]

It's been confirmed that any class can man an artillery piece, but there will be artillery units in game.

Huh? No it hasn't. :P

What we've said is we'll likely not limit the amount of available artillery classes but we do indeed require you to be an artillery class to operate the cannons.

- Trusty

[LaBelle]

Ah, my mistake. For some reason I remembered it being said that artillery could be operated by all but artillery classes would be limited and did the job better. Idk man I'm tired leave me alone

[A. P. Hill]

Something to consider.

When player controlled artillery becomes a thing, I suspect that the current off map "ambient" artillery shelling will either completely disappear or become greatly reduced.

[Vankovski]

Huh? No it hasn't. :P

What we've said is we'll likely not limit the amount of available artillery classes but we do indeed require you to be an artillery class to operate the cannons.

- Trusty

SSD = Artillery License

[TrustyJam]

SSD = Artillery License

No. The plan is to make artillery crews limitless in numbers.

- Trusty

[Eugene Sledge]

Will artillerymen spawn in with weapons? Curious if we will have a way of defending ourselves, besides the cannons, should the enemy infantry get too close for comfort.

[A. P. Hill]

Artillerymen of the Civil war, Numbers 1 - 7 did not carry weapons, they used the tools of their trade as weapons. The corporal and the sergeants carried pistols lieutenants and up carried both sabre and pistols.

[Dutchconfederate]

Artillerymen of the Civil war, Numbers 1 - 7 did not carry weapons, they used the tools of their trade as weapons. The corporal and the sergeants carried pistols lieutenants and up carried both sabre and pistols.

By the book they did not , but there where a few batteries that had rifles behind the piece especially in the Confederate late war period. Some independent organized batteries had some small arms . Not much though mostly a knife used as a tool rather then weapon.

[A. P. Hill]

By the book they did not , but there where batteries that had rifles stacked behind the piece especially in the Confederate late war period. Some independent organized batteries had some arms . Not much though mostly a knife used as a tool rather then weapon.

I respectfully have to disagree.
Supporting evidence please.

I've been studying the ACW for over 50 years and I have read tons of volumes of records and histories and battery accounts and etc. None that I recall have ever mentioned arming themselves. There jobs were the cannon. IF enemies got too close their job was to pull tail and get out of the area as fast as they could … and if they couldn't take the guns with them, they were to leave them. Not the preferred option.

[Poorlaggedman]

I believe that's what distinguishes 'heavy artillery is it comes with its own infantry support within the battery.

I've thought on the artillery a bit and I have a lot of concerns but there's no real clear picture of how it's going to be. I have a whole lot of concerns about a lot of things and artillery is the biggest. Allow me to inject a good dose of post-work day PLM negativity into this.

To me... when your infantry contingent in two ranks takes up ~5% of the play area width it makes no sense to introduce artillery because they have little-to-nothing to shoot at. I'm afraid I'm not in the same universe in terms of what I'm imagining the end result vs what most others are imagining (negative or not). I'm envisioning artillery settling into a token feature where on certain maps artillery may be useful in certain situations while on others a few buffoons pick the artillery roles reducing the infantry contingents and get off a few ineffectual shots.... gun crews loading their gun with canister and hiding back 20 yards only to dash up and fire as soon as infantry get close before running off and leaving their guns to be lost since it will probably have no effect on the outcome of the match and they certainly don't give a crap because that might be the best they can hope for. Etc.

Realistic motivations and behavior are so hard to compel on a player, it doesn't just happen in a video game. People might come for it but it doesn't just happen. You can host a festival and convince 10,000 people to attend but if you didn't plan it meticulously and plan it again you'll probably end up on the news for a humanitarian crisis. You can envision stuff working well but actually having a combined arms Civil War game is something I would have never conceived to ask for before first seeing infantry combat become first rate.

If the artillery have individual weapons, will they be forced to stay near their guns and not be able to abandon them? Or are we going to see artillerymen wandering about within the infantry, pistol or rammer in-hand? What if the guns are overran? Can they abandon their guns? Can the guns move a little or just a lot? How would it handle horses, which were so critical to their operation? Since the game doesn't support AI, what will horses do if they do exist? If a battery is ill-positioned and all its horses started getting dropped, it would leave 100% of the time. That was a big deal. They counted the loss of horses in their reports. So if there's no horses to drop... that isn't really fair to infantrymen who're fighting the artillery.

If the guns can't limber up and can't move a whole lot and the gunners can't retreat themselves, are they just going to be rabbits tied down at a stake? If they have personal defense, to what extent? What's to stop them from stopping the operations of their guns and becoming an infantry unit even in-place. IRL they'd limber up and leave, never risking their guns in a friggin' brawl with infantry. But what's to stop artillerymen from doing that, what's the punishment for losing your guns?

Are they going to spawn at the same pace as infantry? How will they respawn? When you have numerous infantry units on a field and two batteries present is it really fair to let a battery reinforce at the same rate as the infantry? Gunners getting picked off should hamper their operation more than infantrymen getting dropped hampers an infantry regiment.

If the gunners can't defend themselves what's to stop lone infantryman or small groups from tip-toeing the edges of the map and preying on them?

How will active positions be chosen? For example... since the infantry on Hooker's Push have to walk so far, and were historically under fire from Nicodemus Hill, will the batteries up there be active at all (not that they have much to fire at).


I just hope and prey the random shells stop bursting here and there so the disruption they cause it as least an earned.