Flag Spawning Wonkiness

[Poorlaggedman]

If this is the best accuracy the spawn UI can get without hurting server performance, it might be wise to change the display to be something more ambiguous. It's dreadfully inaccurate as it is. I'll spawn when I'm in position 3 or 8. The time is wonky as well. That's all happily sacrificed if it helps get to 200 players but it doesn't make sense to have the timer if it's going to be all over the place. I'd rather see a progression bar or an actual stated estimated time range depending on my position. It makes the game across as very buggy since it's a matter of importance to the player who is dead and waiting to spawn.

I'd really like to see spawn pause instead of cancel the entire queue when the flag is dropped just like when the flag is out of line. Perhaps a slight grace period should be added of a second or two before a flag becomes "dropped" as far as spawning goes. Perhaps instead of the game shuffling players around between their home regiment flag and the other flag (if theirs is unavailable) make the two flag spawns separate entities entirely that can be selected as such.

The sensitivity of the flag spawn hampers some of the historical uses of a flag. Who the heck is gonna keep a color guard up front where they're supposed to be if the continued deployment of reinforcements depends on it being up and ready? Flag bearers are more than bullet magnets right now in game. They're high priority targets that throw a monkey wrench in the entire team's spawn queue every time they're dropped. And they're getting killed fast to the point players are refusing to touch it and I'm feeling more and more like it's a death sentence to touch the thing while I can't even get one player spawned by the time I'm dead.

Flags had a real practical use in the Civil War and it's one that doesn't translate into this game as a guide for the troops belonging to it. I think reinforcing off the flag is a good representation of it's real life use because a flag being carried is a rallying tool. However what's happening in game is the science of the flag deployment is so harsh that it doesn't make sense to keep the flag front and center and dropping the enemy flag bearer is a matter of critical importance as it resets the whole queue.

Smart players in War of Rights know the flag is not a physical rallying symbol but something that is to be protected. In my opinion it's best role in gameplay is entirely off the line with both flags and a detail of three to act as a spawn. That's silly but it's woefully detrimental to the team's effectiveness to do otherwise and the chat is continually filled with "flag get in line" or "get the flag" by waiting spawning players because players proudly and foolishly will realistically carry the flag in danger areas causing constant interruptions in spawning.

[Quaker]

Gameplay in WoR is many months, possibly years from maturation.

The bare bones of gameplay we have on offer aren’t up to the job and the best and possibly only innovative feature in WoR, flag spawning, isn’t working properly.

I really hope going forward the development focus is entirely on gameplay design and features.

[Lord Drax]

They can't just focus on gameplay content. The infrastructure of performance and optimization needs to be done at the same time to allow for the content. They have come a long way cut them a break please and cut back on the negativity...

[LaBelle]

The flag absolutely needs to be off the main line and in a separate part of the map with a small color guard, which is insane if we take a good hard look at the flag spawn system. We're legitimately asking upwards of four players every match to sit around and do nothing. Nothing! Just stand there and "do your duty," while the rest of the team goes off and has fun. Don't get me wrong, I love the system from a regiment standpoint, but Holy shit what a concept.

Other than that, yeah someone already said the current flag queue is a best estimate sort of deal. We definitely need to move to a more ambiguous system like "a few miles from the front," "about a mile from the front," "entering the front" or some shit.

[Oleander]

Flags are easy targets, i think its necessary for the queue to be interupted to prevent a flood of reinforcements magically spawning near the front. Thats also why they are high priority in game.

I do agree that there needs to be more spawn points closer to the fighting to simulate reinforcements closing in.

[Fancy Sweetroll]

We could possibly look into first having the flag get disabled / dropped, when it has actually been dropped for 5 seconds. Allowing players to still spawn if there were just 4 seconds left of the timer and allow for the spawn queue to continue without interruption if the flag is picked up rapidly.

Just pausing the flag spawn indefinately if the flag is dropped is something we dont want since who knows when the flag might be picked up again if ever and in that case, we want to encourage players to switch to the base spawn.

Let me also explain that if the flag bearer is skirmishing and the spawn queue starts counting from 20.

20
19
18
17
16
15
14
13
12
11
10
9
8
7
And all of a sudden you spawned. This happened because the flag bearer moved into being InFormation, resulting in the spawn wave time now becoming 10 seconds and with the spawn wave already having counted for 13 seconds, the 1 player in the spawn queue is then spawned.

Currently when estimating your spot in the spawn queue, these are the information we have.

- Total size of the queue right now.
- Your start position in the queue (The total length of the queue when you entered the queue)
- An event each time a player is spawned on the flag bearer you are queued on.

From our testing, the event when a player is spawned on the flag bearer always triggers reliably. It prints a message to the console, though only if you yourself are queued on the flag bearer as well. It is currently however not always that your current spot in the queue decrements when a player is spawned (Which we should be able to fix as the player spawned event does fire). We'll be looking into debugging it further soon.

[Rbater]

The flag absolutely needs to be off the main line... We're legitimately asking upwards of four players every match to sit around and do nothing. Nothing! Just stand there and "do your duty," while the rest of the team goes off and has fun.

I wrote this in a post a week or two ago: Well for one, due to flag bearers not being able to attack, the role is of course acting only at a fraction of its potential. Quite often, flag bearers would be using the ends of the flag for self defense. See the end of the flag in this picture: 10924 Also, by not being able to move the flag's position (such as left or right as a signal) we're missing out on being able to signal an impending attack on a certain side if both regiments are separated. I believe if those were added, the flag bearer would be able to have more fun themselves when you go on a charge or are being charged, and it adds even more importance to the role.

[Poorlaggedman]

Thanks for the insight.

A lot of times as a player who was just killed I have some insight into what's going on when the flag becomes "dropped". So what actually happens when the queue is cancelled is that I'm sitting there with my mouse over the flag ready to jump into line first. Very often even then I'm not first in line as other players are doing the same. If they're like me they're watching those numbers and chocking it up to a buggy game. Spawning on a flag in combat and being AFK because you weren't ready is not ideal. So the end result is more frustration as I'm getting a stated time and position that changes.

I don't have any answers to that but spawning is probably the most important feature in the game other than the bare basics (point musket, go boom). A small fraction of the combat strength of a team is actually present on the field at any given time while the rest come in as respawns. Where and when they come is critical above all else in any game because you're going to take casualties.

I found a very direct correlation in the past in a game with standard progressive objectives and spawns for both teams. When you lower the spawn time, very often both teams will bleed each other out without the defender ever losing the first objective. The defender has nowhere to progress while the attacker, if they kill a bunch of defenders still doesn't have enough time to capitalize so far from it's spawn before the enemy defenders are replaced. That shows the power of spawning on gameplay. A lot of people are of the mindset that longer spawn times equals more realistic gameplay but I don't agree with that at all. It's appropriate for some games and not for others.

Position is also critical. The dynamic of Pry Grist Mill is heavily effected by the Union spawning on their left flank rather than a centralized location. Obviously with Hooker's Push it makes a difference on gameplay being a half mile away. On top of spawning with an unloaded musket the length of time a player is effectively out of action can be quite high in this game.

In a game like WoR, lines widdle away rather fast and need replenishment or they can't exist for very long, wherever and whenever the spawn is.

[LaBelle]

I actually find myself agreeing with PLM here. A slow game isn't always a great game and while I respect that this is what the devs are intending, I don't think speeding things up would do anything other than boost this games "fun factor."

[Sox]

The actual location that reinforcements spawn needs to be behind the colour bearer, it's not fun to spawn in and get shot in the face by one of your own side, or spawn in front of your own line and get killed because you appear just as the enemy volley fire. In all honesty I've not seen that the addition of these 'mobile' spawn points has changed gameplay at all, you still see lines bleeding away to nothing, the same as you did before spawning on the flag was introduced.

[EneCtin]

On spawn locations: if the 2 companies are relatively close to each other (supporting each other's push), then the default spawn could be advanced a bit towards the location of the 2 companies, on the nearest map periphery away from the objective. That would not only alleviate the spawn situation but also induce variation in gameplay (instead of the north south spawn axis at the start of the match, for example, you can move your spawn to the west side and attack from there. It's be like playing another map. The spawn gets further away toward the original spawn when the distance between the 2 companies opens up (determined by their respective commanding officer or flag bearer locations)

On spawning uncertainty: this needs to be addressed. At the very least a clearer position in the flag queue and queue resuming when the flag is picked back up or returns to at least skirmish range

On flag bearer being defenceless: the pole together with the tip at the lower end constitutes a sort of pike that could be used in an extreme situation to stagger or even hurt a charging enemy. The bearer would need to keep the pole above the head so as not to let the flag in the mud too much and thrust downwards. Your vision would be obstructed about 50% by the cloth when doing this. The move should be only when stationary, have a long recovery period and have more reach than a bayonet charge. As the flag is heavy, the attacked player would stop and stagger for a time, wounded or not. Anything to give the flagbearer a bit of defensive capability and keep his interest in the game while sacrificing his fun for the team.

[Poorlaggedman]

Let them punch, five punches for a kill. 10985


In all honesty I've not seen that the addition of these 'mobile' spawn points has changed gameplay at all, you still see lines bleeding away to nothing, the same as you did before spawning on the flag was introduced.


It has a lot of potential but it's hard to utilize to the maximum potential. Two flag bearers now can theoretically poop out 12 guys a minute in ideal circumstances - 16% of a 75 player team if you lose 12 guys in an instant split evenly between regiments. However, there's a 20 second minimum death time before you even get to the spawn screen. By the time the first guys are selecting the flag spawn, the enemy has reloaded and a new group is about ready to join them just as dead. If you lost another 12 now you have 32% of your team dead as the first two guys enter the spawn queue, assuming your flags are being carried by the remaining 51 surviving players and not laying in the dirt at this point. The newest dead guy has at least 120 seconds to wait now on top of his 20 second death screen time whether he knows it or not.

You can see how very quickly a 'regiment' can become a 'squad' puffing away 15 shots a minute.


The style of warfare desired really requires a certain volume of firepower to smoke up the battlefield which requires player concentration and lots of shooting. If you go to these battlefields and consider the deadliness of the weapons and the concentration of combatants, it must have been an extremely hazy and confusing experience on the eyes--nothing like Hollywood could show--for it to last any length at all. One would assume it would be over fast.

The conundrum faced by players at present heavily favors use of cover and concealment. Lines basically always form behind one or the other or engage exclusively at long range-- sometimes both. This makes sense and has some historical accuracy but about everything I read about CW warfare, when the shit hit the fan it talks about soldiers under fire still finding value to move in some form of line formation and there being some purpose to it but also a sustainability to it which is difficult to grasp.

In WoR however even procuring a single tree or rock is often the difference between success or failure. In some rare situations in game you do see smoke start to wreck visibility to the point you can move more boldly in some sort of order but it's not the norm in large part because player concentration can never be maintained long in the first place to generate that level of shooting to hamper visibility that much. Like in the 150-player drill video a while back, it's possible in sections of a battlefield to achieve it but the risk of death and the rapid dissolution of the experience death carries on the entire team's gameplay almost necessitates some level of cover instead.


In the long run the lack of player concentration itself actually causes a higher risk of death when exposed. The higher risk of death causes a greater spawn gridlock and a smaller concentration of players.

There'll always be a balance but I'd suggest it isn't in spawns always being a lengthy experience that interrupts the gameplay or forces the entire team to reform two minutes into contact (for the privates at least... let the dead officers and NCOs wait on the death screen longer).

The idea of trying to maneuver realistically in formation under withering and accurate firepower is insane if the benefit doesn't outweigh the cost. This is why teams do a lot of darting around from cover to cover and advance in a kind of column rush. The stray skirmish and out of line losses from those unconventional movements may add up but it's hard for players to believe being blatantly murdered standing in a dressed line is any better especially when the average time they spend dead from that experience is so high or they're thrown back to the base spawn to try and begin their experience anew as often as they are.

[MK81]

The actual location that reinforcements spawn needs to be behind the colour bearer, it's not fun to spawn in and get shot in the face by one of your own side, or spawn in front of your own line and get killed because you appear just as the enemy volley fire. In all honesty I've not seen that the addition of these 'mobile' spawn points has changed gameplay at all, you still see lines bleeding away to nothing, the same as you did before spawning on the flag was introduced.

I would also prefer the spawn point to be altered to behind the flag bearer than infront in the spawn systems current state. I had posted, a very long time ago, about the idea of a possability where by the flag barer would have a "Q" funtion to place the spawning soldiers in at a suitable local and visable location to where they stood. Possibly based on a minimal radius to their position on the map and the visable highlighted availble system based spawn points. And preferably not through buildings and rocks. The current system works, but I was told many moons ago that it was always temporary.

I'm glad that the company soldiers are spawning to the company flag now, if it is being carried. This makes company cohesion better, but still has the cross over when the colour barer is killed.

Game play is always going to be tricky to manipulate in small sections of the overall map that are designed for skirmishes, especially with so many other warfare based gaming titles producing fast based individual play.

[[17thMI] J.Connelly]

I would also prefer the spawn point to be altered to behind the flag bearer than infront in the spawn systems current state. I had posted, a very long time ago, about the idea of a possability where by the flag barer would have a "Q" funtion to place the spawning soldiers in at a suitable local and visable location to where they stood. Possibly based on a minimal radius to their position on the map and the visable highlighted availble system based spawn points. And preferably not through buildings and rocks. The current system works, but I was told many moons ago that it was always temporary.

I'm glad that the company soldiers are spawning to the company flag now, if it is being carried. This makes company cohesion better, but still has the cross over when the colour barer is killed.

Game play is always going to be tricky to manipulate in small sections of the overall map that are designed for skirmishes, especially with so many other warfare based gaming titles producing fast based individual play.

I think giving the Flag Bearer a "q" function is a GREAT idea. In addition to hopefully alleviating the spawning issues, it would give the Flag Bearer another way of actively participating.

[Poorlaggedman]

There seems to be an issue that has came out over the last month or so where you *can't* spawn on the other regiments flag if your's is not available particularly out of line I think and possibly when dropped as well.

There's also an issue where if you initially pick a flag bearer spawn and run into some wonkiness (spawn resetting.... multiple interruptions)... and you then decide to try for the base spawn, you will instead spawn on the flag anyway.

[Sox]

I think the main problem with the mobile spawn system is just exactly that, it's always mobile. I think a better way of spawning on the flag would be if the colour bearer had to 'plant the flag' so to speak. In other words the colour bearer 'sets' himself in a position, once he's 'set' then players canspawn on him. So for example the Company goes into line & the flag bearer chooses his position in the centre of the line, but at the back, and he's stationary, but if he 'unsets' himself to move then reinforcements again can't spawn in.

It'll be less of a problem for the server to track, it'd give more of and incentive for a Company to actually 'guard' the flag, it'd stop players spawning in front of the line etc etc.

[Poorlaggedman]

If a team is smart he's already planted in one spot most of the time. Of course that doesn't happen, they're told to continuously jog back and forth to avoid being killed quickly because their importance is not mainly symbolic but mission critical to the very existence of a formation. If any sort of cover is available the rest of the men are usually kneeling behind it while the poor flag bearer is behind standing getting killed over and over. Partly bad tactics, partly design flaws.

Forcing a flag to stay planted to spawn would make fixed cover even more important than it already is. No line would ever be able to form and advance even worse than it is now. Certainly not with a flag in front where it's supposed to be. Having a few players sit out and just act as spawn the whole match would be even more overpowered.

Admittedly a lot of players might think it absurd but I always felt it was a total F-ing disgrace the hatred of flag bearers pre-flag bearer spawn system (when they essentially served no purpose but to act as a banner for the enemy to see). Many times flag bearers would be shot by their own team before October of 2018. It's clear from that culture that the flag should mean something. It still should not be the difference between a semi-fluid game experience and a completely disheveled one where you have to reform in the spawn constantly and do a great deal of walking while units in the field wither and die off.

The game is two entirely different experiences based on the use of the flag bearer role. One is tolerable, at a minimum, and usually has some enjoyable intensity to it. The other sucks horrendously (Hooker's Push is basically unplayable w/o the flag bearer). If I found myself time-traveling to 12 months ago I would not even imagine myself entering a server until the flag bearer system comes out. Since the game has came this far with spawning like that it doesn't seem like an insane leap to me to designate any given member of a formation as the 'flag bearer' while an actual flag bearer merely acts as a bonus while existing within a formation.

This brings up the question of how to choose where to spawn a player and on what formation. The simple solution might be to use NCOs and Officers. The flag bearer should always remaining the quickest solution. Yet the problem with that is that it still violates the practical uses of the roles. Officers and NCOs should have very real roles in gameplay. Make them a requirement though and you've made a leap to a protected status who, like the flag bearer, can't be risked in serious competitive gameplay. They can't fill their real-life roles and still maximize their effectiveness.

Think of Battlefield 2. You could spawn off squad leaders. A good squad leader was not a leader but a spawn point. Sure he had to choose where to place himself but he'd be irresponsible to risk himself. The entire idea of having a squad leader is therefore violated when there is practically a necessity of having one alive. The value of having a real leader is utterly eclipsed by the necessity of having a spawn point in the field.


Just brainstorming but another option for non-flag spawning would be a totally different feature as a way of spawning. Call it rallying. A group of players bunches up and a leader executes a command and as long as that formation of a certain threshold in size is stationary and rallying and not shot at within a certain amount of time then they spawn players, flag or no flag. I'd prefer the game merely track formations of certain sizes and compositions and allow spawning on them all.

I think it shouldn't be limited to just flags is the theme I'm pushing. Spawning is everything in games where you respawn. Games like this aren't a thing without respawns. Features like this are prime opportunities to manipulate player behavior in ways exponentially more effective than any team or personal score system ever could.

[[17thMI] J.Connelly]

If a team is smart he's already planted in one spot most of the time. Of course that doesn't happen, they're told to continuously jog back and forth to avoid being killed quickly because their importance is not mainly symbolic but mission critical to the very existence of a formation. If any sort of cover is available the rest of the men are usually kneeling behind it while the poor flag bearer is behind standing getting killed over and over. Partly bad tactics, partly design flaws.

Forcing a flag to stay planted to spawn would make fixed cover even more important than it already is. No line would ever be able to form and advance even worse than it is now. Certainly not with a flag in front where it's supposed to be. Having a few players sit out and just act as spawn the whole match would be even more overpowered.

Admittedly a lot of players might think it absurd but I always felt it was a total F-ing disgrace the hatred of flag bearers pre-flag bearer spawn system (when they essentially served no purpose but to act as a banner for the enemy to see). Many times flag bearers would be shot by their own team before October of 2018. It's clear from that culture that the flag should mean something. It still should not be the difference between a semi-fluid game experience and a completely disheveled one where you have to reform in the spawn constantly and do a great deal of walking while units in the field wither and die off.

The game is two entirely different experiences based on the use of the flag bearer role. One is tolerable, at a minimum, and usually has some enjoyable intensity to it. The other sucks horrendously (Hooker's Push is basically unplayable w/o the flag bearer). If I found myself time-traveling to 12 months ago I would not even imagine myself entering a server until the flag bearer system comes out. Since the game has came this far with spawning like that it doesn't seem like an insane leap to me to designate any given member of a formation as the 'flag bearer' while an actual flag bearer merely acts as a bonus while existing within a formation.

This brings up the question of how to choose where to spawn a player and on what formation. The simple solution might be to use NCOs and Officers. The flag bearer should always remaining the quickest solution. Yet the problem with that is that it still violates the practical uses of the roles. Officers and NCOs should have very real roles in gameplay. Make them a requirement though and you've made a leap to a protected status who, like the flag bearer, can't be risked in serious competitive gameplay. They can't fill their real-life roles and still maximize their effectiveness.

Think of Battlefield 2. You could spawn off squad leaders. A good squad leader was not a leader but a spawn point. Sure he had to choose where to place himself but he'd be irresponsible to risk himself. The entire idea of having a squad leader is therefore violated when there is practically a necessity of having one alive. The value of having a real leader is utterly eclipsed by the necessity of having a spawn point in the field.


Just brainstorming but another option for non-flag spawning would be a totally different feature as a way of spawning. Call it rallying. A group of players bunches up and a leader executes a command and as long as that formation of a certain threshold in size is stationary and rallying and not shot at within a certain amount of time then they spawn players, flag or no flag. I'd prefer the game merely track formations of certain sizes and compositions and allow spawning on them all.

I think it shouldn't be limited to just flags is the theme I'm pushing. Spawning is everything in games where you respawn. Games like this aren't a thing without respawns. Features like this are prime opportunities to manipulate player behavior in ways exponentially more effective than any team or personal score system ever could.

I agree with the general gist of this. I think the formation spawning idea has particular value. It's clear to me that the color bearer isn't fulfilling their historical role given the current game mechanics, and there is general frustration with flag spawning. Perhaps transitioning to something along the lines of PLM's suggestion here would be positive.

[Leifr]

I think the main problem with the mobile spawn system is just exactly that, it's always mobile. I think a better way of spawning on the flag would be if the colour bearer had to 'plant the flag' so to speak. In other words the colour bearer 'sets' himself in a position, once he's 'set' then players canspawn on him. So for example the Company goes into line & the flag bearer chooses his position in the centre of the line, but at the back, and he's stationary, but if he 'unsets' himself to move then reinforcements again can't spawn in.

It'll be less of a problem for the server to track, it'd give more of and incentive for a Company to actually 'guard' the flag, it'd stop players spawning in front of the line etc etc.

I'm almost inclined to suggest that once you're in the spawn queue for the flag-bearer, you spawn in regardless of him then moving off to a new location. If the flag-bearer is currently moving (as you attempt to join the spawn queue), you must wait for him to become stationary to enter the queue properly.

[Sox]

I'm almost inclined to suggest that once you're in the spawn queue for the flag-bearer, you spawn in regardless of him then moving off to a new location. If the flag-bearer is currently moving (as you attempt to join the spawn queue), you must wait for him to become stationary to enter the queue properly.

Yes, that's the basic gist of what I'm saying. We've used mobile spawns in the past in Unsung Vietnam, and it can be a good way of simulating a much larger force than the actual amount of players that you have, for us though the mobile spawn is an M11A3.....so you have better protection than you do when you're just a guy with a flag lol. I have no idea what the Devs thought process is here, but if the SOLE purpose of flag spawning is to get players to the front line quicker, then it's not working.

I have my doubts about the Flag Bearer role in general if I'm honest. Initially it does appeal, but once you actually play it, and you very quickly realise that you're the main target, it fast looses it's appeal for most players. It's classic realism vs game, it might even be worth tying in flag spawning with morale, once your side drops below a certain level the flag spawning gets disabled to further simulate your dwindling number of troops. Maybe try making the flag bearer invulnerable to bullets but leave him vulnerable to bayonets, but have him de-spawn like the officer does if he's not within reach of a certain number of friendly troops. In reality, the soldier who carried the colours was a bullet magnet of course, but in a game where is the 'fun' element of that?

[Daveallen10]

Agree with the OP this is a bit of a nuisance.