Uniform question

[Poorlaggedman]

I'm sure you guys have probably seen this photo before. But I wonder how many of you know there's a second photo of these same soldiers from another angle?

I was wondering what people could tell me about the uniforms these soldiers are wearing? I am not great with that sort of stuff and you all seem to know a lot more. I've been working on a video project for a while about these photos. The location of the photo is a hot debate among Civil War history nerds and I have it pegged and have been researching and nearly completed with my project after about ~4 years of it being somewhat of an obsession. I'm pretty certain their unit based on their location. But i'm just curious what sticks out among their attire.

First photo
11054

Second photo
11055


You can download the photos in high resolution from the library of congress for free here. Where it says download click the dropbox and select the highest resolution.

First Photo
https://www.loc.gov/item/2006685384/

Second Photo
https://www.loc.gov/item/2012647835/

Thanks

[A. P. Hill]

If I recall from my reading they were identified as members of the Iron Brigade.

[Hinkel]

Indeed, the shots were made at the first days action near Lees headquarter at Seminary Ridge.
The pictures were made 4 days after, so the confederates looted the hats, shoes and equipment.

But the theory says, these are soldiers of the Iron Brigade.

[Poorlaggedman]

Most people adamantly disagree about it being the first day's field at Gettysburg, despite the official captions saying that (not saying they're right) or that it could it be the iron brigade. That's the thing about the photos Alexander Gardner took here, they're frequently mislabeled.

You'll find a couple kepis in the photo though none so conveniently placed to allow their Corps symbol to be seen. Obviously the iron brigade is not known for wearing kepis. One of them most definitely seems to be placed so it was formerly worn on one's head.

[Hinkel]

Here is a very good overview of the civil war trust, trying to explain the picture:
https://www.gettysburgdaily.com/harvest-of-death-part-1/

This is also great:
http://spotsylvaniacw.blogspot.com/2012/01/gettysburg-harvest-of-death-location.html

Because there might be a kepi somewhere does not mean, it belongs to the soldiers :)
Possible soldiers of the 24th Michigan.


The 24th Michigan wore frock coats and Hardy hats. Only one forage cap could be found among the dead. The Hardy hat could easily be converted into a slouch hat, a favorite among southern troops.

Looking at the piping of the coat and the buttons, they definatly have frock coats:

http://i.gettysburgdaily.com/imgs/HODTG022912/HODTG02291220.jpg

[Poorlaggedman]

Right, I've seen both those articles and others. The Civil War Trust doesn't agree with it being Iron Brigade troops. That's a whole series of articles on Gettysburg Daily with the sole purpose of trying to refute the claims that were made prior about it being on the First Day's battlefield near Seminary Ridge

The location I've got may make sense for the Iron Brigade... mostly the 2nd Wisconsin. There was more than just the Iron Brigade fighting in the locality. It may be a mixture. The bodies are a little too thick to be stray casualties. I don't know enough about the uniforms to know the practical application of their use though I know the general idea of the Iron Brigade's attire. There do seem to be buttons on the sleeves and up to 8 buttons on some of the coats which are visible. The blue stripe on the arms from the artist colorization doesn't appear to me in the photo - though they may be there. They were supposed to have leggings as well, would the johnnies have stolen those too? Would any other units have worn Frock Coats or were the Iron Brigade totally unique in that regard in the Army of the Potomac?

One of the kepis definitely looks to have fallen off one of their heads.

11057

[Cairnsy44]

I could be wrong, but weren't the Iron Brigade also known for wearing gaiters? Nary a gaiter on these lads.

[A. P. Hill]

You'll also notice none are wearing shoes.

Since gaiters go overs shoes, it's likely they've been removed by the looting.

[Rbater]

I feel like the colorization is very wrong. On the plaque accompanying the photo is this writing: "The rebels represented in the photograph are without shoes. These were always removed from the feet of the dead on account of the pressing need of the survivors. The pockets turned inside out also show that appropriation did not cease with the coverings of the feet." http://rmc.library.cornell.edu/7milVol/plate36g.html

In addition, the second link that Hinkel posted was close to the actual location. The author made more revisions later that year: http://spotsylvaniacw.blogspot.com/2012/10/gettysburgs-harvest-of-death-conclusion.html. So the front soldiers are of the I Corps and the more distant ones are Rebs.

[Poorlaggedman]

Well that's the thing, the photos are captioned every other way under the sun. The guy who took them in 1863 captioned them as rebel dead (with that caption you just used) and then used the other angle and called them Union dead. He's the same guy who moved a body to make the famous "dead rebel sharpshooter" photo at Devil's Den. He took many photos of the same groups of dead from different angles.

Trust me there are tons of people who do not believe that is the location which the Spottsylvania blogger says in your link and are still searching. People get very angry over this and if you want to get into a fight with some Gettysburg nerds it's one good way to do it. The entire series of articles on Gettysburg Daily by the Battlefield Trust is to disprove that very theory based on the terrain. Either way I'm not too interested in that since that's another matter, which is the entire point of the video I'm making, I'm more interested about the uniforms as a supplement what I've already got.

I'm just wandering how common the frock coats were then among other units and if that's what they really are. This photo has already been heavily, heavily, heavily vetted for this very reason by a lot of historians. If it was obviously Iron brigade attire it would be solved by now. Anybody can look at it and see for themselves that they have 8 buttons and buttons on the sleeves and might well be frock coats yet that's not a point you'll see made in too many arguments about them, I wonder why.

With the location I've got, they could be Iron Brigade or they could be another unit. I did not think they were Iron Brigade troops though I'm now confused as to whether they might be. The only Iron Brigade units that took significant casualties nearby was the 2nd Wisconsin going after Archers brigade they took a heavy volley and they didn't stop. That's a wild number of fatalities from a single volley - though it could be a mixture of other units.

If you want an intro into this then here's a good link to start:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLCcbPveH7Y

It's got at least three parts and they can be hard to find on youtube. It's originally from VHS and, like a lot of copyrighted crap, has never been reproduced by the holders to better formats.

[Rbater]

Well the author of the articles that me and Hinkel posted stated this: "I am very convinced that the dead seen in these images are members of the 151st Pennsylvania Infantry Regiment. Initially I would have thought them to be the dead of the 24th Michigan, but what I understand now shows me that the Iron Brigade skirted to the north of this location, falling back, past the 151st Pennsylvania who were going to take the brunt of Virginia and North Carolina units pressing through the woods. The 151st Pennsylvania made their stand on the crest, in front of the edge of the woods where Reynolds fell, until falling back across the field bordered by fences to the north and south."

[Poorlaggedman]

Yes I think they're 151st as well, but that doesn't explain the attire. If you go to Gettysburg... or just view the location from Google maps the 151st monument is about 50 yards further towards the woods. It's not uncommon or hard-to-believe many monuments are misplaced. And for other reasons I just don't see them advancing stupidly exposed beyond the slope like that. With the smoke, confusion, and trauma plus only seeing the ground once it would be easy to mess that up when placing your monument. Every account I've read about the 151st places them farther forward, halfway in the woods. That could very well be wrong. But the 151st report claims their left was anchored on a ravine. The ravine is further forward than this position. It's a subtle little ravine so that does seem to entail they may have reached further up. I don't think they did, but they might have.

However if these were Iron brigade dead then that changes a couple of things because the 2nd Wisconsin went right through there but did not halt to fire... Most or all the Iron Brigade casualties in the photo were lost from one volley then, which may make sense since they believe they lost ~100 from one volley. That could easily entail ~15-20 instantly killed. But then General Reynolds was probably not killed so far forward, as is thought but further back. In fact if that were the case I suspect he was killed within the view of the second photo. A staff courier said he saw Reynolds "lying by the two little elms alongside the fence, dying or dead." The two little trees by the fence are rather conspicuous to me. Granted, there was also a fence at the edge of the woods.

So that seems plausible. Witness accounts also claim that Reynolds may have been killed by rebels in the "Eastern Finger" of Reynolds woods. This has always been a point in accounts which has to be explained since it doesn't make a lot of sense. The thing is, the 'official' spot and monument has always been placed beyond that 'finger of woods'. It just seems silly for Reynolds to be killed so far forward so recklessly. I know the guy was brave but that would put enemy shooting him from a few yards away. And I think it'd be mostly absurd if he was killed that far forward of his first regiment he sent in. Did they even deploy skirmishers (in the movie they do :D )? They were relieving Buford's cavalry so I could see them not. That would also partly explain the high losses from the initial enemy volley.

If so that's quite a feat for Gardner to take a photo of the "Field where Reynolds fell" a few days after the battle and to this day everybody thinks he was killed at the edge of the woods.

Check out the youtube video I edited in if you want the common consensus version about the mystery.

[Rbater]

Yes I think they're 151st as well, but that doesn't explain the attire. If you go to Gettysburg... or just view the location from Google maps the 151st monument is about 50 yards further towards the woods. It's not uncommon or hard-to-believe many monuments are misplaced.

The Monument to the 151st has this inscribed on it though: "July 1. Fought here (where the monument is) and in the grove west of the Theological Seminary." West of the Theological Seminary (United Lutheran Seminary) is that field/ grove that the article points to. https://www.google.com/maps/place/United+Lutheran+Seminary/@39.8310677,-77.2474976,16.23z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0xa5cd2d7402747939!8m2!3d39.83 11538!4d-77.244826

Again though, still doesn't describe attire, but at least it confirms that they were in the spot.

[Poorlaggedman]

They were the reserve regiment for the whole 1st Corps and were sent to where their monument is approximately and ended up covering the retreat of the Iron Brigade and what was left of their own brigade. It's not unusual for monuments to be known to be off so that would be no surprise. After getting wrecked doing that, much of what was left of the 1st Corps withdrew and fought again near the seminary including the grove near it. Their second position wasn't out that far it was closer to the seminary building.

A lot of the modern treeline in that area are unhistorical encroachments.

[Cairnsy44]

You'll also notice none are wearing shoes.

Since gaiters go overs shoes, it's likely they've been removed by the looting.

true, but since they would not likely keep gaiters, wouldn't we see them strewn about?

[A. P. Hill]

You'd be surprised at the fact that Confederate troops would keep the gaiters. (However, if you have historical evidence to back up your claim, I'd be interested in seeing it.)

Especially since they're used to keep stones and dirt out of your shoes. Not to mention keeping the open ends of your pants legs from getting under your feet if the legs are too long.

[Poorlaggedman]

There's a lot of debris spread around the photos. What I posted as a kepi coming off the soldier looks odd from the other angle. Get the highest resolution photos from the library of congress (~100mb/piece) and check them out. You can literally see flies with it. Keep in mind there's about five photos in total so one might have a better version than the other. I linked the best I can find. There's a few items that I don't know what they are. The young-looking soldier with the relatively intact face has something visible in one view right above his head. There's also an item near the upright kepi hat visible from the same angle.

I was always perplexed by the wire/stringy object placed on top of one of their chests.

[A. P. Hill]

Interesting to be sure.

[Poorlaggedman]

According to Scott Hartwig on page "158"

By the time of Gettysburg the frock coats and leggings had largely disappeared, and most of the men wore the standard uniform of U. S. Volunteers, but the Hardee Hat remained the signature of the brigade, and all enlisted men still wore it

http://npshistory.com/series/symposia/gettysburg_seminars/10/essay5.pdf

I'm curious about the buttons on the wrists? Did the standard uniforms have that? And how many buttons down the front. This is really intriguing me because the more I look into this the more it seems more plausible

[Poorlaggedman]

Boy the information age is really something. I knew about this photo of the burial crew but I've found a print with less cropped out on the edges revealing two new members of the burial crew and what looks like the very edge of a horseman on the right edge of the photo just barely discernible

Library of Congress burial crew:
https://www.loc.gov/item/91732541/

Less cropped version:
11129

https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZwMEfCpACJcibu226

Any opinion on the burial crews?