Poorlaggedman
05-18-2020, 07:29 PM
I'd like to see a melee system that is good but isn't so good that it's used constantly in gameplay. This is an important balancing act. If the system was made better in much-needed ways then it would get used way more than it is.
I'd really like to see more than one way of stabbing. The full bayonet lunge is sort of excessive as a sole melee option. A faster jab that causes less damage but recovers faster would be a more sensible alternative and better prolong melee coupled with any future parrying addition. Also please get rid of the black & white from the first stab or hit. Any benefit from that as a punishment for getting hit is negated when people can't tell friend from foe.
Any serious examination of Civil War combat reveals how little hand-to-hand combat there was compared to what you'd expect. People arguing otherwise cannot be taken seriously because no serious historian today argues otherwise. Soldiers who fight in formations (of any type) cannot physically exist in hand-to-hand combat with an opposing formation for very long. One side wins and one loses (runs away or surrenders). This is a complicated relationship. The bayonet can both be a critical role but not really be used. As I called it before, a 'charge' is more of a game of 'chicken' than anything else.
This fact that hand-to-hand is brief holds true in WoR gameplay but only because the teams wipe each other to a silly extent and vast parts of the teams are sent back to spawn, usually one without its flags. It's a tit-for-tat bloodfest and the true victor is more easily measured by who can race their guys back from the main spawn quicker. This sucks and busts up the continuation of gameplay for the players - all for a relatively crappy hand-to-hand mess with guaranteed TKing.
In order to fix this, players and teams need to be better conditioned to avoid senseless and disruptive hand-to-hand fights and when to call them off and when to run away from an enemy one. You'd do this by giving a serious buff to higher and more concentrated numbers. If you build up local superiority in numbers and form a wall of men or bayonets you should not have to go tit-for-tat to small groups of players - let alone lone wolves. This could take the form of autosurrender but I also think out of line players should be 100% frozen from using melee against formation soldiers or at least frozen out of full power melee attacks. Getting a wall of bayonets to an enemy is more of a challenge than the chaotic and messy charges we have now where spreading out is a key component to avoid defensive fire.
One of the most effective tactics I know of is to sprint in among a close formation of enemy resulting in a lot of collateral damage in them trying to get at me. If done just preceding a charge or within the technical confines of 'skirmishing' or even 'in formation,' it's very effective. This is the polar opposite of real life where you would try to concentrate as many bodies as possible to drive an enemy away. There is virtually no reason to do this in WoR in fact special orders are given to the do the opposite - spread out - come in at angles. Melee right now represents more of a aerial dog fight than soldiers on a battlefield taking and holding territory.
Gameplay has everything to benefit from a more nontraditional approach to melee.
Here... here's some sources to read or watch if anyone is lacking in the understanding of what the melee "should look like."
------------------------------------------------
From Military History Visualized 12 minutes 15 seconds
Napoleonic Infantry Tactics - Charges - Not what you see in Hollywood but no less compelling
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uw3wlU3eYsc&t=12m15s
------------------------------------------------
From Military History Visualized 6 minutes 32 seconds - Cavalry Charge
Note that two evenly matched and motivated forces of cavalry charging each other might find each other stopped and staring awkwardly at each other because their horses won't charge. These differences in the dynamic in actual combat vs what Hollywood portrays are immense and the real thing is no less compelling. It helps you understand the casualty rates for cavalry battles being so low despite charge and counter-charge. He calls a compact formation a 'moving wall' which is probably the best description.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4itcJ8Ur2c&t=6m32s
------------------------------------------------
Page 24 Scott Hartwig - Hand-to-hand. Free National Park Service Article
http://npshistory.com/series/symposia/gettysburg_seminars/11/essay2.pdf
------------------------------------------------
Also my own suggestion video from a ways back on Autosurrender at 4 minutes and 2 seconds
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjUuaVXTJsY&t=420s
------------------------------------------------
Come on in to Team Realism for the big win.
I'd really like to see more than one way of stabbing. The full bayonet lunge is sort of excessive as a sole melee option. A faster jab that causes less damage but recovers faster would be a more sensible alternative and better prolong melee coupled with any future parrying addition. Also please get rid of the black & white from the first stab or hit. Any benefit from that as a punishment for getting hit is negated when people can't tell friend from foe.
Any serious examination of Civil War combat reveals how little hand-to-hand combat there was compared to what you'd expect. People arguing otherwise cannot be taken seriously because no serious historian today argues otherwise. Soldiers who fight in formations (of any type) cannot physically exist in hand-to-hand combat with an opposing formation for very long. One side wins and one loses (runs away or surrenders). This is a complicated relationship. The bayonet can both be a critical role but not really be used. As I called it before, a 'charge' is more of a game of 'chicken' than anything else.
This fact that hand-to-hand is brief holds true in WoR gameplay but only because the teams wipe each other to a silly extent and vast parts of the teams are sent back to spawn, usually one without its flags. It's a tit-for-tat bloodfest and the true victor is more easily measured by who can race their guys back from the main spawn quicker. This sucks and busts up the continuation of gameplay for the players - all for a relatively crappy hand-to-hand mess with guaranteed TKing.
In order to fix this, players and teams need to be better conditioned to avoid senseless and disruptive hand-to-hand fights and when to call them off and when to run away from an enemy one. You'd do this by giving a serious buff to higher and more concentrated numbers. If you build up local superiority in numbers and form a wall of men or bayonets you should not have to go tit-for-tat to small groups of players - let alone lone wolves. This could take the form of autosurrender but I also think out of line players should be 100% frozen from using melee against formation soldiers or at least frozen out of full power melee attacks. Getting a wall of bayonets to an enemy is more of a challenge than the chaotic and messy charges we have now where spreading out is a key component to avoid defensive fire.
One of the most effective tactics I know of is to sprint in among a close formation of enemy resulting in a lot of collateral damage in them trying to get at me. If done just preceding a charge or within the technical confines of 'skirmishing' or even 'in formation,' it's very effective. This is the polar opposite of real life where you would try to concentrate as many bodies as possible to drive an enemy away. There is virtually no reason to do this in WoR in fact special orders are given to the do the opposite - spread out - come in at angles. Melee right now represents more of a aerial dog fight than soldiers on a battlefield taking and holding territory.
Gameplay has everything to benefit from a more nontraditional approach to melee.
Here... here's some sources to read or watch if anyone is lacking in the understanding of what the melee "should look like."
------------------------------------------------
From Military History Visualized 12 minutes 15 seconds
Napoleonic Infantry Tactics - Charges - Not what you see in Hollywood but no less compelling
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uw3wlU3eYsc&t=12m15s
------------------------------------------------
From Military History Visualized 6 minutes 32 seconds - Cavalry Charge
Note that two evenly matched and motivated forces of cavalry charging each other might find each other stopped and staring awkwardly at each other because their horses won't charge. These differences in the dynamic in actual combat vs what Hollywood portrays are immense and the real thing is no less compelling. It helps you understand the casualty rates for cavalry battles being so low despite charge and counter-charge. He calls a compact formation a 'moving wall' which is probably the best description.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4itcJ8Ur2c&t=6m32s
------------------------------------------------
Page 24 Scott Hartwig - Hand-to-hand. Free National Park Service Article
http://npshistory.com/series/symposia/gettysburg_seminars/11/essay2.pdf
------------------------------------------------
Also my own suggestion video from a ways back on Autosurrender at 4 minutes and 2 seconds
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjUuaVXTJsY&t=420s
------------------------------------------------
Come on in to Team Realism for the big win.