Hit-Boxes/Wounds/Bleeding/Medics?

[Arkansan]

Hit-Boxes
1. Will a shot to the leg, register the same as a shot to the torso or anywhere else? Will it be one shot, one kill as it seemed to be in the video?

Wounds
2. If the body parts register different damage, will we notice a difference in our character's run speed, reload speed, aim, or stamina?

Bleeding
3. If we are able to survive an initial shot, will we eventually bleed out?

Medics
4. If we are able to bleed, will there be a possible medic or field surgeon class to keep us going for the remainder of the battle even though most wounds proved later to be fatal?

[CybrSlydr]

Let's think about this logically - a .58 caliber ball striking you anywhere on the body is going to do some SERIOUS damage. It would most likely take limbs clean-off if they struck bone and at minimum render you combat-ineffective if they struck muscle.

I would think that medics would be unnessecary as it's not like they're going to tourniquet your leg/arm and say, "Alright son, back into the fray!" How are you going to ram home that rod if you're missing your right arm? How are you going to run up that hill when you've got a giant hole in your leg from shrapnel/bullet?

I could see reasoning for shrapnel only causing wounds that you could continue fighting through, but rifle rounds? While you might not die from the shot, any shot that hits any part of you is going to pretty much end your day.

[BloodBeag]

There's always grazes and the possibility of having your hat shot off

[Arkansan]

The .58 minnie ball was a big caliber, but it was slow. Pushing 1100fps out of the barrel. To think that it would
most likely take limbs clean-off, seems a bit out there. The minie ball doesn't fragment like more modern, high velocity rounds do. It would only make a straight wound channel with little damage to surrounding organs. It also loses off energy very quickly.

Keep in mind these men are deployed usually with friends and people they knew before the war, and most wouldn't want to be left behind with a minor would while they marched ahead. Adrenaline would also play a factor. We've all heard of the countless stories of soldiers taking rounds just to keep fighting as long as possible. When I was deployed to Afghanistan, friends of mine got hit with ball bearings from a suicide bomber and didn't even know it until we pointed out the blood. Poor medicine is what really led to so many amputations and deaths.

[Leifr]

I can only speak through the collection of minie pieces I own, rather than experience of being shot, but I expect being hit by anything other than the smallest of caliber weapons during the ACW would likely result in being entirely out of the fight.

[A. P. Hill]

Someone needs to read up on their ACW history.

[CybrSlydr]

The .58 minnie ball was a big caliber, but it was slow. Pushing 1100fps out of the barrel. To think that it would , seems a bit out there. The minie ball doesn't fragment like more modern, high velocity rounds do. It would only make a straight wound channel with little damage to surrounding organs. It also loses off energy very quickly.

Keep in mind these men are deployed usually with friends and people they knew before the war, and most wouldn't want to be left behind with a minor would while they marched ahead. Adrenaline would also play a factor. We've all heard of the countless stories of soldiers taking rounds just to keep fighting as long as possible. When I was deployed to Afghanistan, friends of mine got hit with ball bearings from a suicide bomber and didn't even know it until we pointed out the blood. Poor medicine is what really led to so many amputations and deaths.

This publication would disagree with your assessment.

http://publications.amsus.org/doi/pdf/10.7205/MILMED-D-02-2307


RESULTS
Muzzle velocities of the rifled musket were significantly less when compared with the Krag-Jorgenson rifle, averaging 944 fps (±116; range, 809–1085) vs. 1852 fps (± 22.5; range, 1820–1878), respectively (p< 0.001). Maximum permanent tract diameters in the first 15 cm of the musket wound track were significantly greater than the rifle, averaging 16.3 mm (±2.6, range, 14–20) vs. 9.2 mm (±3.2; range, 7.5–15), respectively (p= 0.005). Maximum temporary cavities within the first 15 cm of gelatin were also significantly larger, averaging 121 mm (±5.4; range, 115–130) vs. 38.6mm (± 8.8; range, 30–53) ( p< 0.001). Bullet weights were also significantly larger, totaling 29.7 grams (±1.3; range 28.2–31.5) vs. 14.18 grams (±0.01; range 14.17–14.19) ( p< 0.01). Using grains, bullet weights were 458.3 grains (±20 grains; range 435.2–486.1) vs. 218.8 grains (±0.15; range 218.7–219). Using the entire path through the gelatin, as opposed to the first 15 cm as listed in the previous paragraph ( Fig. 5 ), the Krag-Jorgenson bullet averaged 918 mm (range 865–930 mm) total penetration, with an average maximum temporary gelatin cavity of 128 mm (range 110–157mm). This occurredat an average penetration of 485 mm (range 446–510 mm). In contrast, the musket’s bullet traveled an average maxi-mum distance of 685 mm (range 500–780 mm) through the gelatin. The maximum temporary cavity was achieved at an average of 118 mm (range 100–150 mm) depth. The maximum temporary cavity averaged 123 mm (range 115–135 mm).

--------

The U.S. Army Surgeon General’s Office sponsored stud-ies to determine just what effect the newer bullets would have compared to the old. Captain Louis A. LaGarde was sent to Frankfort Arsenal, Pennsylvania, to complete this study in 1892. He fired shots into human cadavers (52 of a 0.30 caliber, 14.3 gram (220 grain) prototype Krag-Jorgenson bullets and 37 of the standard 0.45 caliber, 32.4 gram (500 grain) bullets of the model 1873 Springfield rifle) and found that the new projectile deformed less, penetrated farther, and appeared less destructive than the older rifle. 10,11. He felt that the newer bullet was more humane in that it would account for fewer ampu-tations than the older rifle. LaGarde then served as a major in the Spanish-American War at a base hospital in Cuba. His observations in treating war wounded confirmed his earlier findings on the effects of the newer bullets.
12,13

[Leifr]

Someone needs to read up on their ACW history.

Is that directed to myself? I was responding directly to the post above my own, to a particular sentence.


We've all heard of the countless stories of soldiers taking rounds just to keep fighting as long as possible.

If so, the exception does not prove the rule. I have read accounts of men on both sides receiving wounds and continuing the fight, albeit with some discomfort. It seems to be an extraordinary event relying upon the resilience of the wounded or some small stroke of luck with regards to where the round impacted. It should not be taken as the regular occurrence or the 'norm' when a player is invariably hit by the opposing team.

[A. P. Hill]

No sorry, replying via phone sucks, you snuck in on me ;)

[Arkansan]

My argument still stands. Minie balls did not remove body parts. Surgeons did. Minie balls also do not fragment whatsoever and do not cause the amount of internal bleeding the modern hollow points do.

[A. P. Hill]

I guess you're going to have to link your proof. :)

[CybrSlydr]

My argument still stands. Minie balls did not remove body parts. Surgeons did. Minie balls also do not fragment whatsoever and do not cause the amount of internal bleeding the modern hollow points do.

No, it directly and completely refutes your argument.

Did you even bother to read the link or what I quoted?


In the present study, the Minié ball caused more disruption of ordnance gelatin with both permanent and temporary cavity over the depth of penetration associated with a thigh and torso. The permanent cavity represents the area touched by the projectile as it passes hrough. For soft tissue with an intact vascular supply, the amount of tissue damage is propor-tional to the size of the projectile. The temporary cavity is a transient lateral displacement of tissue. Elastic tissue, such as skeletal muscle, may be pushed aside and bruised. Tissue in this area should heal up uneventfully. Inelastic tissue, such as bone or liver, may become fractured by this mechanism. Both the permanent and temporary cavity measurements were significantly larger through the first 30 cm with the Minié balls when compared to the rifle, despite a near doubling of muzzle velocity seen with the rifle.

The maximum temporary cavity for the Krag-Jorgenson rifle occurred at almost 50 cm, outside of the average thickness of a torso, with relatively minimal disruption of gelatin occurring in the first 30 cm.

------

There are some important findings for those who study gunshot wounds today. Increased velocity is often cited as a factor, and by some authors the most important factor, caus-ing increased wounding. The muzzle velocity of the Krag-Jorgenson rifle was nearly double that of the rifled musket shots (average 1852 fps vs. 944 fps), yet is associated with less destructive wounds in both the present study and historical data.

[CybrSlydr]

Gunshot wounds produced ghastly injuries during the Civil War, largely because the bullet—called a minnie (or Minié) ball although it was a conical shaped missile—that was made of soft lead flattened out upon impact, shattering bone and ripping through tissue. The minnie ball made an entrance wound the size of a thumb; it made an exit wound the size of a fist. Rarely did a bullet pass through a soldier leaving a “clean wound.”

http://muttermuseum.org/static/media/uploads/civilwar_lp4_fnl.pdf

Are you getting the picture now?

[CybrSlydr]

The Minié ball inflicted horrendous injuries, challenging even the most experienced Army Surgeon. Upon impact the conoidal balls lost their shape, penetrating the victim’s body causing extensive fissuring, splintering of bone, lacerations and destruction of internal organs. The velocity of the Minié was such that it would carry with it pieces of skin and clothing into the wound itself. Death from an untreated infected entry wound was often inevitable. A direct hit to the chest, torso, head and stomach was seen as the soldier’s death sentence.

The Minié ball was responsible for the high number of amputations in The American Civil War. The removal of the shattered limb was counter to contemporary guidelines practiced by non-battlefield Surgeons in mid 19th-century America. Physicians were taught to follow the principles of ‘conservative therapeutics’ when faced with severely damaged limbs. Conservative therapeutics meant preservation of the body at all costs and saving diseased limbs whenever possible, only performing mutilation as a last resort. However, the Minié ball ignited infection from the moment of impact, with bacterium immediately transported into the wound by way of the torn pieces of skin and clothing. The battlefield Surgeon had no choice but remove the limb to prevent certain death. The mindset of the Army Surgeon became ‘life is better than a limb’.

https://comestepbackintime.wordpress.com/2011/09/29/american-civil-war-medicine-part-3-minie-ball-injuries/

[CybrSlydr]

The Minié ball didn’t just break bones, it shattered them. It didn’t just pierce tissue and internal organs, it shredded them. And if the ragged, tumbling bullet had enough force to cleave completely through the body, which it often did, it tore out an exit wound several times the size of the entrance wound. Civil War surgeons were quickly overwhelmed by the gaping wounds, mangled bodies and mutilated limbs they were asked to repair as the scope of the war broadened and casualties mounted. Though often accused of being too partial to their bone saws, amputating arms and legs as quickly as the men could be placed on their operating tables and subdued with chloroform or ether, the surgeons really had no choice. Even if they’d had the skills and resources to attempt reconstructive surgery, in the heat of battle they didn’t have the time.

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/08/31/the-bullet-that-changed-history/

If you're going to be pedantic, perhaps limbs weren't flying around willy-nilly - but your forearm/bicep/thigh/shin takes one of these, the only thing holding it on is a bit of gristle or clothing - that's close enough to clean-off to count in my book.

[CybrSlydr]

Finally...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQnVfyhVJ-Y

Fast forward to 9:40 / 16:47.

[Arkansan]

You keep comparing a smaller full metal jacket round to a much fatter round. Of course the bigger fatter round will do more damage. A minie ball is comparable to a .45 ACP. My point being you always hear of people surviving and even fighting back while getting hit with this. Thus I want to know if every shot to our body in WoR will be a one shot "kill" or will you be able to take a round or 2 before you are completely out of the fight. And you would of course soon bleed out from these unless treated so I also asked the other questions which still remain unanswered.

[A. P. Hill]

snip snip snip

Now you went and did it you got him all riled up.

In the mean time please (as did Cyber,) provide links to back your "argument" ... your word just don't get it without backing. Sorry.

[CybrSlydr]

Now you went and did it you got him all riled up.

In the mean time please (as did Cyber,) provide links to back your "argument" ... your word just don't get it without backing. Sorry.

EDIT: Nevermind - mis-read your post.

[Arkansan]

You can't sit there and say every shot will be a direct hit to a bone or vital area. My main question to the devs is, in game will a shot to my foot, calf, hand, or other area kill you in game??

[CybrSlydr]

The .58 minnie ball was a big caliber, but it was slow. Pushing 1100fps out of the barrel. To think that it would , seems a bit out there. The minie ball doesn't fragment like more modern, high velocity rounds do. It would only make a straight wound channel with little damage to surrounding organs. It also loses off energy very quickly.


You keep comparing a smaller full metal jacket round to a much fatter round. Of course the bigger fatter round will do more damage. A minie ball is comparable to a .45 ACP.

Now you're contradicting your own posts!

[CybrSlydr]

You can't sit there and say every shot will be a direct hit to a bone or vital area. My main question to the devs is, in game will a shot to my foot, calf, hand, or other area kill you in game??

A shot to any of those areas with a .58cal projectile from a rifle would render you combat ineffective.

Where, exactly, are you saying someone could get hit with one of those bullets and not be rendered combat ineffective? And if you're combat ineffective, you're as good as dead.

Logically, it makes sense in the game that unless it was a graze, you're down and out and have to wait for re-spawn (are they doing re-spawn?).

[A. P. Hill]

You can't sit there and say every shot will be a direct hit to a bone or vital area. My main question to the devs is, in game will a shot to my foot, calf, hand, or other area kill you in game??

For the record, every video I have seen of the game, I haven't seen any wounded casualties. Just KIA.

You may want to give this a view ... here's a partial quote:

Wounds Caused by Minie´ Balls

The soft lead that allowed Minie´ balls to expand within the rifle barrel also caused them to flatten out and/or splinter when they hit a human target. A smoothbore’s solid shot could break bones and tear through tissue, but soft lead bullets shattered bone and ripped tissue. Overworked Civil War surgeons often had to amputate limbs wounded by Minie´ balls. Adding to the damage, some soldiers notched their bullets to insure they would spread out when they hit their target. In the 1870s, doctors urged an international ban on soft-lead bullets, saying they caused the same sort of damage as explosive bullets.

Ball (no pun intended,) is in your court. (http://www.historynet.com/minie-ball)

[Arkansan]

Now you're contradicting your own posts!

Saying a bigger bullet does more damage than a smaller does not mean that the minie ball fragments or makes other than straight wound channels. Have you not looked at the round you are comparing it to? Its a full metal jacket.

[CybrSlydr]

Saying a bigger bullet does more damage than a smaller does not mean that the minie ball fragments or makes other than straight wound channels. Have you not looked at the round you are comparing it to? Its a full metal jacket.

No - you are the one who made the initial comparison.



Keep in mind these men are deployed usually with friends and people they knew before the war, and most wouldn't want to be left behind with a minor would while they marched ahead. Adrenaline would also play a factor. We've all heard of the countless stories of soldiers taking rounds just to keep fighting as long as possible. When I was deployed to Afghanistan, friends of mine got hit with ball bearings from a suicide bomber and didn't even know it until we pointed out the blood. Poor medicine is what really led to so many amputations and deaths.

And because the Minie doesn't fragment doesn't make it less deadly than a 5.56 - it rather makes it MORE deadly. Instead of a needle, you have a wrecking ball.

EDIT: Finally, I would say that the banning of the Minie ball in warfare (and any soft-lead bullet/JHP) points to the ultimate proof of how deadly the .58 Minie was - they haven't tried to ban FMJ in warfare yet because it doesn't cause as much damage to the target as the Minie did.

[Arkansan]

You keep forgetting about hollow points.. But oh well.

[A. P. Hill]

You keep forgetting about hollow points.. But oh well.

Please follow the link I posted. It is commented there that the men of the civil war sometimes scored their mini balls so they would shatter and cause more damage. That's about as hollow point as they get in the ACW.

[Jonny Powers]

I'm just going to respond with this book, of which you can find relevant info starting on the last paragraph of page 456:
https://play.google.com/store/books/details?id=RPwKCKRbXRMC&rdid=book-RPwKCKRbXRMC&rdot=1
It is a book written by a surgeon in 1863 and most of his research is based upon knowledge gained following the Crimean war.
It's free, I found it doing a simple google search of "Do minie balls fragment?" if you don't like the google play formatting and want to download a pdf - actually really interesting stuff! :D
From what I can tell, round balls would have a greater chance of fragmenting, or at least fracturing the bone, than Minie balls. This is due to their relative shape (round balls are just that, Minie rifle balls are conical) and their velocity (round balls are slower).
Upon further examination, you both are right in a sense; In regards to a round musket ball, the surgeon makes the claim that "a slow, round ball hits a bone without sufficient force to splinter it, it is apt to flatten upon it, while a swift, round ball, striking against a sharp angle of bone, will often be split into two fragments, each of which may pursue a separate course."
However, in the case of the conical Minie ball, he notes that "Wounds created by conical balls, like those from the Minie rifle, have usually greater velocity than the old bullet, and, therefore, if fired at a short range, lacerate the soft tissues less than a round bullet; but if at long range, tear more than the old bullet."
This being said, the point still stands: conical bullets like the Minie ball rarely fragment, though they can create larger wounds at greater ranges, especially the exit wound.
Upon further reading, where he details surgery, I have to say I would much rather have my arm cut off than go through some of that shit. Those tools detailed there look like a big nope.

Edit: Well sheesh, people were really going at it while I was typing! :rolleyes:

[A. P. Hill]

Not for the squeamish ... (http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=images+of+american+civil+war+wounds&qpvt=images+of+american+civil+war+wounds&qpvt=images+of+american+civil+war+wounds&FORM=IGRE)

[GreyDog58]

*insert George Crecy here*

[Rithal]

Inb4 George Crecy...

[Arkansan]

Bleeding, bandaging, and handing out ammo confirmed for WoR in last update?

*The non-commissioned officers’ primary task is to keep the companies tight as well as to look after provisions within the company and make sure to distribute them to the best of their ability. This includes ammunition as well as bandages to stop bleeding.