"Game" or "Simulation"?

[A. P. Hill]

Let's decide to define this.

Okay, I for one have to step forward and say something. There is something about this endeavor that has been eating at me. And it needs said. While I can understand why, I get fairly upset and galled each time I see this effort called "a game."

From what I have heard, and read, from the developers, while true it looks "gameish", the mechanics behind it, I think, are not. Thus because of the "gameish" appearance, we are having the discussions of leveling, kill points, etc., things all associated with true games. It saddens me to see these "discussions".

I keep focusing on the words said by the developers, they want to "re-create", "realism" "re-live history". Those things can not be done in a "true game environment", because certian realism, will be lost should this evolve to a direction the developers have stated they would like to go. As we have seen from various threads on these forums, there are numerous discussions on "gameability", and I feel it is just wrong. People stating things like if this does not reward the player in some fashion that the support will fall off, the interest will be lost. These comments come from "gamers only mentality". They fail to see the true historical re-created historical, dare I say possibly, educational value of this re-created simulation. True Historians and people with a true interest in the American Civil War will continue to breathe life into this simulation.

Its with this in mind that I would rather refer to this task as a SIMULATION. The developers are attempting (and doing quite well at it,) of RE-CREATING an actual HISTORICAL SIMULATION of a real life event. "Games" do not generally do that. SIMULATORS on the other hand do.

So from this post forward I would like to see more and more people, maybe including the developers, to turn away from the term "Game" and start referring to this unique product as a SIMULATION.

Like a flight sim can simulate flight, so this project simulates actual history in the same way.

[Simon445]

Why not both ? :p

[TrustyJam]

I think we're somewhere in between. We do make use of what could be considered gamey mechanics such as a heads up display showcasing orders, capture areas, etc. as well as a two-way spawn system allowing regiments to be able to stay together throughout an entire match - more about that system in a future Kickstarter update. I think it's important to acknowledge these systems and therefore, I'd go with a historically authentic hardcore game instead of a straight up simulator. Simulators such as garbarage truck simulator or bus driver simulator etc. flooding the market have soured the general publics veiw of what exactly a simulator means. :)

- Trusty

[CybrSlydr]

I think we're somewhere in between. We do make use of what could be considered gamey mechanics such as a heads up display showcasing orders, capture areas, etc. as well as a two-way spawn system allowing regiments to be able to stay together throughout an entire match - more about that system in a future Kickstarter update. I think it's important to acknowledge these systems and therefore, I'd go with a historically authentic hardcore game instead of a straight up simulator. Simulators such as garbarage truck simulator or bus driver simulator etc. flooding the market have soured the general publics veiw of what exactly a simulator means. :)

- Trusty

I must say that this response makes me very, very happy. :)

Personally, when talking about it, the difference between "game" and "simulation" is purely semantics.

[A. P. Hill]

... Simulators such as garbarage truck simulator or bus driver simulator etc. flooding the market have soured the general publics veiw of what exactly a simulator means. :)

- Trusty

Really? Those things actually exist?

Dear Gawd what has the world come to?

But thanks for the comment Trusty! I am hoping more developers would show up and comment. As Cyber said, you're comments are very very welcome and appreciated. And, yes, I can understand that there are certain things that are 'gameish' that need to be used, but the ultimate goal is not to create a game in the true fashion of a game. You folks are breaking the mold in doing this. Thank you.

And c'mon Cyber, lets do away with the nonchalance ... semantics? LOL. Grow a pair brother. Call it what it is. It's a historic battle simulation. ;)

[rebeldestroyer]

Simulators such as garbarage truck simulator or bus driver simulator etc. flooding the market have soured the general publics veiw of what exactly a simulator means.
I know right. It seems that the only real simulators are DCS, IL2 Sturmovik, and ARMA

[VictorFernandes]

A simulator is a game! Case closed.

If you work with photography, video, vectors, animation, etc... you will one thing in common to all, the software. Doesn't matter the area, you use a software dedicated to the specific area.

A simulator is a game. Doesn't matter if you need 500 shots to taken down an enemy or only 2 shots, both are games.

A true simulation would be you getting on the field with laser rifles to tag opponents or something like that would be a simulation, or going inside a airplane cockpit and have a virtual screen that will be simulation.

Simulator is different from Simulation

[Leifr]

A simulator is a game! Case closed.
A true simulation would be you getting on the field with laser rifles to tag opponents or something like that would be a simulation, or going inside a airplane cockpit and have a virtual screen that will be simulation.


Hate to break it to you pal but the screens used in aircraft simulators are identical to the screens sat on our desktops, albeit larger or projected.

:confused::rolleyes:

[VictorFernandes]

I knew someone would noticed that... however you don't have a cockpit at your desk, maybe a joystick but not those massive things ;)

1308

But I'll give you that...you won this battle...

[Rithal]

I second Trusty's reply. There are dozens of "simulators" out there that are basically jokes.

I will list a few off for you:

Construction Simulator 2015
Ski Region Simulator 2012
Ship Simulator 2006
Grass Simulator
ect.

More serious simulator games include the Train Simulator series, Euro/American Truck Simulator, and Farming Simulator 2013/2015.

While War of Rights definitely is a hardcore game that attempts to be as realistic as possible, it doesn't really line up with the "simulators" above. It is a game. Calling it a simulator would be like calling Red Orchestra 2 a simulator or Verdun a simulator.

In my opinion, to call it a simulator, it would need to line up all aspects of military life with how it was in 1862. :) Really, it doesn't do that. It gives us the combat, and that's about it. Any more, and it would be more like a roleplaying game rather than a simulator. :D

[A. P. Hill]

In reality I'd rather call it electronic reenacting .

[GreyDog58]

To me, It looks like Red Orchestra/Rising storm only set in the American Civil War.

[Rithal]

In reality I'd rather call it electronic reenacting .

Nope. Nothing like reenacting in my opinion. In reenacting you try recreate battles completely. War of Rights will be competitive, and there will be objectives, and there will most certainly be lots of people not following orders and just ramboing across the map. Its just a video game set in the Civil War. Calling it "electronic reenacting" would be like calling Napoleonic Wars reenacting, Red Orchestra 2 reenacting, and Verdun reenacting.

[TrustyJam]

Nope. Nothing like reenacting in my opinion. In reenacting you try recreate battles completely. War of Rights will be competitive, and there will be objectives, and there will most certainly be lots of people not following orders and just ramboing across the map. Its just a video game set in the Civil War. Calling it "electronic reenacting" would be like calling Napoleonic Wars reenacting, Red Orchestra 2 reenacting, and Verdun reenacting.

Objectives which are the same ones the soldiers had 150 years ago. I doubt we'll see a whole lot of people ramboing. It's simply not a viable strategy. Morale boosts of following orders, an unforgiving stamina system, no nametags in the distance and the fact that you've only got one shot will make sure of that I feel. You can't compare us to either RO2, Verdun or even ARMA due to the differences in the firing speeds. No matter how super awesome you are to aim and to hide in bushes near an enemy spawn point for instance. You will not be getting more than one shot off before the rest of the enemies will spot you (due to sound and smoke). In short, there won't be any easy kills or at the very most, only one for a lone wolf.

- Trusty

[TrustyJam]

Oh and the spawn system! I forgot about that. You running off getting yourself killed quickly while ramboing means you get to wait a great deal of time before being able to respawn - more on that next week. :)

- Trusty

[Rithal]

I wasn't trying to compare gameplay to Red Orchestra or Verdun, but the "essence" of the game. Taking a historical war and putting it in a video game. In that sense, Red Orchestra, Verdun, and War of Rights are very similar in the "hardcore" style and the strive to make the game match history as much as possible. I still would not call War of Rights a "reenacting" game. I'm not sure a video game can even fall into the category of reenacting... ;)

[VictorFernandes]

Objectives which are the same ones the soldiers had 150 years ago. I doubt we'll see a whole lot of people ramboing. It's simply not a viable strategy. Morale boosts of following orders, an unforgiving stamina system, no nametags in the distance and the fact that you've only got one shot will make sure of that I feel. You can't compare us to either RO2, Verdun or even ARMA due to the differences in the firing speeds. No matter how super awesome you are to aim and to hide in bushes near an enemy spawn point for instance. You will not be getting more than one shot off before the rest of the enemies will spot you (due to sound and smoke). In short, there won't be any easy kills or at the very most, only one for a lone wolf.

- Trusty

So... one hand resting your head and another in the mouse waiting for someone to give a order to "click".

Nonethelss, I knew this game was different and I like the mechanics but now I wonder how long a match will take since the pace seem to be very, very slow. Can we expect 60+ minutes games?

[Jonny Powers]

I expect matches, unorganized free-play ones, to take about as long as a North and South "Battle" game mode, perhaps longer on larger maps. I'm sure there will be timer functions as well to keep the match from getting too long.

[Willie Fisterbottom]

well if this poll is anything to go by the community seems to almost be split 50/50 on this. I'd personally rather have it be more of a hardcore/realistic game and not a true to life simulation.

[TrustyJam]

well if this poll is anything to go by the community seems to almost be split 50/50 on this. I'd personally rather have it be more of a hardcore/realistic game and not a true to life simulation.

There is no true to life simulation. :) I'd still say we're somewhere in between of the meaning of the two.

- Trusty

[A. P. Hill]

There is no true to life simulation. :) I'd still say we're somewhere in between of the meaning of the two.

- Trusty

Real life is as close to real as it gets ;)

But the point I am trying to make is from what I see, it's way more than a game, and therefore should not be approached with a 100% game mentality, based on what is trying to be accomplished by the developers. This may ultimate redfine "gaming".

[Henronicus]

I second Trusty's reply. There are dozens of "simulators" out there that are basically jokes.

I will list a few off for you:

Construction Simulator 2015
Ski Region Simulator 2012
Ship Simulator 2006
Grass Simulator
ect.

More serious simulator games include the Train Simulator series, Euro/American Truck Simulator, and Farming Simulator 2013/2015.

While War of Rights definitely is a hardcore game that attempts to be as realistic as possible, it doesn't really line up with the "simulators" above. It is a game. Calling it a simulator would be like calling Red Orchestra 2 a simulator or Verdun a simulator.

In my opinion, to call it a simulator, it would need to line up all aspects of military life with how it was in 1862. :) Really, it doesn't do that. It gives us the combat, and that's about it. Any more, and it would be more like a roleplaying game rather than a simulator. :D

Don't forget Goat Simulator as one of the joke ones.

[Sgt.Kar98]

I would say it's more like NW + RO2 + own additions.