Skirmsh lines

[CjkCJkCjk]

Hello,
Cleburne here again, I was just wondering how will skirmisher lines work? I use Skirmish lines a lot in NaS and I was just wondering how it will work in WoR

Thanks!,
72nd Pennsylvania Volunteer Infantry Company H. Captain Cleburne, Commanding

[Rithal]

I imagine you would just form up in a skirmisher line just like you would in North and South. No major differences really. :p

[CjkCJkCjk]

I imagine you would just form up in a skirmisher line just like you would in North and South. No major differences really. :p
That's what i was thinking But I didn't know if there would be a ground line on the ground showing men where to form up, and I don't know if your allowed to skirmish throughout the match

[Bravescot]

I would nae worry about it Cj as you'll be operating in line I hope! (Due to the 72ndPA being line and all)

I would be surprised if they bothered to put in a line format for skirmishing like they have shown in the trailer. Skirmish lines were not neat organised things at the best of times in battles. They were what you made them to be and they formed at the skill and ability of the men forming them.

[A. P. Hill]

Nah, we use sharpshooters as the skirmish line members! ;)

[Triton]

Yea I'm curious to see if the skirms will be used as units to take out high priority targets in small raiding party's, as well as being used to counter other units on the battlefield.

-Edit
Because I know the confederates would have guerrilla raiding party's go after banks and what not. I'm not sure on this part but correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't the union and Confederacy use smaller squad sized units to take high priority targets like generals commanders and people who wouldn't be fighting in the line but rather riding around the back barking out orders.

[Rithal]

That's what i was thinking But I didn't know if there would be a ground line on the ground showing men where to form up, and I don't know if your allowed to skirmish throughout the match

Well what you are allowed to do will be handled by private server rules and admins, not the developers.

[Arkansan]

Since people in line will have a bonus of some kind, does this mean skirmishers do not receive a bonus? I'm curious how the developers will handle this.

[A. P. Hill]

I would think that skirmishers would be part of the line formation, as any good commander knows the value they bring, and being only a few dozen yards in front of their line.

Where the line bonus would fail would be if you were blantonly ignoring your leadership. And were chasing butterflies as was said in another thread.

[Rithal]

Since people in line will have a bonus of some kind, does this mean skirmishers do not receive a bonus? I'm curious how the developers will handle this.

Well we don't know if a player just has to be in proximity to the officer/flag or if they have to be in formation. If its a proximity system, the skirmishers should work fine.

[rapier17]

I would hope that skirmishers get absolutely no bonus at all. Skirmishers in a loose formation start with a greater level of survivability than some poor privates stood shoulder-to-shoulder in the midst of their company. If skirmishers were to recieve a bonus on top of that contextual increase to survivability (thus increasing the units ability to outshoot a formed company in a prolonged firefight) then I fear that we'd see nothing but skirmish chains. If your company is skirmishing, you should want the safety afforded by being in a formed body when the enemy closes, as you should be incredibly vulnerable to attack from a unit in close-formation (as well as cavalry). The skirmishers job is to needle the enemy line, to unsettle it and try to disrupt its chain-of-command and I fear skirmishers/sharpshooters becoming killing machines that wipe out entire companies to a man whilst surviving due to their loose formations*.

*I've seen it before in the M&B:Warband mod The Deluge (used as an example as it was the mod I played most), due to people being sensible and using loose formations to increase their survivability - go into close formation with muskets shooting at your group and you start losing people very quickly for no return.

[A. P. Hill]

Make sure you're not confusing sharpshooters as skirmishing. Skirmishers were definitely part of the line/company even though they are advanced.

[Bravescot]

I agree there should be no bonous to Sharpshooters in loose formation. However there should lose be no debuff left in by accident due to them being in a loose formation as that would be a big error.

[rapier17]

There shouldn't be a debuff, just that they should not want a formed body of line infantry getting close to them, and that said line infantry are not mown down at 200 yards by a group of skirmishers. The 'bread & butter' of WoR has to be the line company in close order formation, but skirmishing needs to have its place* - it may be a tricky act for the development team, but I have my fingers crossed.

The distinction between ACW sharpshooters & skirmishers is clear in my mind; I'm specifically talking about skirmishers, whether dedicated skirmishing units or line infantry adopting a loose formation. When I wrote about skirmishers starting with an advantage due to their loose formation, I was refering to the point when the skirmishers have moved out of a line formation in order to snipe & harass - that is the point at which their survivabilty rises. The passing reference to sharpshooters is a concern that they will be highly popular, due to the precision target rifles with their telescopic sights and that many people will want to be part of the 'elité'/best. I fear that without limitations on their deployment, we could see whole swarms of sharpshooters roaming the lands around Sharpsburg, bowling over line companies at 500+ yards. That, however, is a different issue to general skirmish lines/formations & their being buffed.

*The 19th Va. spent the afternoon of the 17th September 1862 fighting in a loose formation in order to cover ground on the slopes of Cemetery Hill, but there were only roughly 50 men present for the regiment.

[Bravescot]

Well thank goodness there are going to be very few precision target rifles with their telescopic sights as they were for people to pledged Lt Gen. upwards.

I believe the devs. have mentioned, don't quote me to this as I might be mistaken, that there will be a limit on the amount of dedicated sharpshooters that can deploy onto the field at any one time. Naturally though should a normal regiment wish to adopt skirmish tactics in combat I guess there is nothing stopping them really. There is the point though where you wander if the ability to deploy so quickly into skirmish formation without any disincentive not to do so might result in more and more companies shifting to using those tactics.

"The 13th Reserves (42nd Pennsylvania) were deployed as skirmishers in a line nearly 300 strong. As they advance, the regiment came under fire from artillery and Confederate sharpshooters. Taking cover among the rocks and trees, the Bucktails began returning fire. Armed with Sharps rifles, the Confederates were quickly outmatched and a rapid advance drove the Confederates back to their main line of defense."

[Maximus Decimus Meridius]

i think you can regulate something like that with event rules.

[Challis89]

Reading a few sources all regiments were trained to skirmish and the flank companies were the primary skirmishers similar to back in the days of Wellington. I don't think it's unreasonable to deploy into skirmish order if your a line company however you will be smashed by dedicated skirmish companies with the sharpshooter rifles.

[SemajRednaxela]

The real issue here is simply the scale that the game can represent. Hooe full the servers and devs will accommodate 200+ per side. But even then at any one time a lot of people will be dead or respawnjng etc.

The Napoleonic tactics used in the American Civil war are meant for big scale engagements with thousands of individuals.

And as mentioned before. Only people who paid big monies will have elite Scoped rifles and I'm sure it'll be server rules that decide how many sharpshooter companies can deploy. That and in game "gentleman" rules similar to MnB.

[thomas aagaard]

First of all US infantry tactics lost any connection to british systems with the revolution and since the early part of the century they copied the latest French drill books word for word.
Both the books by Scott and later Hardee's 1855 book are translations/plagiats of French drill books... this is even mentioned by Casey in the preface of his book.


The idea that the flank companies are the primary skirmishing companies are not mentioned in Hardee 1855 or US infantry tactics 1861.
(at least not in the start where the other descriptions of structure can be found)

It is written in Casey's in the early part (§9 and §10) but is marked with a 0 indicating that that § is not in effect.
("Paragraphs marked 0 are suspended, and will not be taught")


So all companies where trained to fight as skirmishers... some where just better then others.
In the early part of the war when smoothbores was still common, some brigade commanders had one regiment with rifle muskets and used that regiment for most skirmishing duty.
In other cases the flank companies in the regiments where armed with rifled muskets and the center companies with smoothbores.


---
Oh, and the civil war didn't use Napoleonic tactics... that require general use of combined arms with a very close cooperation between artillery, cavalry and infantry. (and there was no proper battlefield cavalry used during the war)
The use of clear reserves for the pursuit of a beaten enemy,
It require huge use of skirmishers and of column formations. (yes the british also used the column for manæuvre)
The line fighting seen during much of the civil war got more to do with the 7year war than how napoleon did things.. and by late war things had moved on to more open warfare with heavy skirmish lines being the norm.

a good article about this can be fund here: http://johnsmilitaryhistory.com/cwarmy.html

[Willie Fisterbottom]

The real issue here is simply the scale that the game can represent. Hooe full the servers and devs will accommodate 200+ per side. But even then at any one time a lot of people will be dead or respawnjng etc.

The Napoleonic tactics used in the American Civil war are meant for big scale engagements with thousands of individuals.

And as mentioned before. Only people who paid big monies will have elite Scoped rifles and I'm sure it'll be server rules that decide how many sharpshooter companies can deploy. That and in game "gentleman" rules similar to MnB.

I believe they said everyone will have access to a scoped rifle but only those who pledged at the right tier will have the J.F. Brown rifle.

[Maximus Decimus Meridius]

I believe they said everyone will have access to a scoped rifle but only those who pledged at the right tier will have the J.F. Brown rifle.

Yes i read that, too

[Landree]

Thomas, well said. Many people fail to understand how the War Between the States was actually fought on the ground. The dog and pony shows we call reenactments that I attend are a sham in comparison to the real thing. I look forward to the day when this Darby representation can be laid to rest.

That said, skirmishers were used plenty and often. It was during the large battles with so many troops focused in one area that the line formations were so famously seen.

Fisterbottom, you're correct. The pledged scoped rifle will not be the only scoped one in the game. Snipers are just special snowflakes anyways.

[SemajRednaxela]

First of all US infantry tactics lost any connection to british systems with the revolution and since the early part of the century they copied the latest French drill books word for word.
Both the books by Scott and later Hardee's 1855 book are translations/plagiats of French drill books... this is even mentioned by Casey in the preface of his book.


The idea that the flank companies are the primary skirmishing companies are not mentioned in Hardee 1855 or US infantry tactics 1861.
(at least not in the start where the other descriptions of structure can be found)

It is written in Casey's in the early part (§9 and §10) but is marked with a 0 indicating that that § is not in effect.
("Paragraphs marked 0 are suspended, and will not be taught")


So all companies where trained to fight as skirmishers... some where just better then others.
In the early part of the war when smoothbores was still common, some brigade commanders had one regiment with rifle muskets and used that regiment for most skirmishing duty.
In other cases the flank companies in the regiments where armed with rifled muskets and the center companies with smoothbores.


---
Oh, and the civil war didn't use Napoleonic tactics... that require general use of combined arms with a very close cooperation between artillery, cavalry and infantry. (and there was no proper battlefield cavalry used during the war)
The use of clear reserves for the pursuit of a beaten enemy,
It require huge use of skirmishers and of column formations. (yes the british also used the column for manæuvre)
The line fighting seen during much of the civil war got more to do with the 7year war than how napoleon did things.. and by late war things had moved on to more open warfare with heavy skirmish lines being the norm.

a good article about this can be fund here: http://johnsmilitaryhistory.com/cwarmy.html

Always a pleasure to learn something new