Creating an Illusion of a Massive Battle

[Sigma]

So I have just found out about this game and congratulations on reaching your funding goals. :)

Anyways one issue that I could see is that major battles during this period would consist of massive lines of troops measuring from thousands into the tens of thousands. Have the devs thought of a way of immersing players so that it appears they are taking part in a large battle and not have the battlefields appear sparse? I imagine some games will not have too many people playing on them at times so will there be AI troops that can be commanded in a way similar to Mount & Blade? If so, how do you plan on having the AI handle tactics so that they don't turn into the large head-on suicide charges ending in a large, deadly clump in the middle of the map like in Mount and Blade?

[R21]

AI troops could work given the nature of the Game and the order system i've seen looked like it was designed for NPC's.

The AI wouldn't even have to be that advanced as long as they stood in formation and melee charged enemies that got too close. I imagine Co-op scenarios where you took key points on the map against AI could be something that'd be popular. As for in PVP matches to bolster Numbers i'm not sure how well it would work for a number of reasons:

expensive on performace :: if you've already got the hundreds of players they're advertising it might push it over the edge

Competency :: they'd have to make semi decent AI in PVP scenarios where as in a CO-OP defend scenario they could get away with just having them stand and defend a position

[Bravescot]

There are to be no AI in this game. This has been stated before on multiple threads

[Maximus Decimus Meridius]

can anybody write this "AI" question into the faqs?

[Rithal]

can anybody write this "AI" question into the faqs?

We will get on that as soon as we have a FAQ thread. :p


Have the devs thought of a way of immersing players so that it appears they are taking part in a large battle and not have the battlefields appear sparse?

That is indeed a great question! :)

The developers have developed ways to get around the issue of player limits on a server. Right now, we haven't been told what the max player limit will be, but we can assume it should be at least somewhere in the hundreds.

For skirmish battles specifically, small parts of the map will be sectioned off. For example, you may just be able to fight around Burnside's Bridge. Several hundred players concentrated in this small area will definitely succeed in making the battle seem very grand and massive. In addition, there will be a constant flow of players as they die. (In some game modes. These are still being developed) So you might see 40 - 50 players attack the bridge (This roughly simulates a company) then you will see that same amount of players attacking again and again. This is of course just an example, but you get the picture.

The developers are still trying to determine the max players on a server, and the pre-alpha will probably help a lot with that. I would say for phase 1 of skirmishes however, we might see anywhere from 16 - 32 players on a server to start. I ask one of the developers to confirm that number. :)

Hope that helps Sigma! Ask some more questions! I would be happy to help some more. :)

[Maximus Decimus Meridius]

We will get on that as soon as we have a FAQ thread. :p




You are a mod rithal? Shame you! :p :D

http://warofrights.com/FAQ

[A. P. Hill]

You are a mod rithal? Shame you! :p :D

http://warofrights.com/FAQ

And shame on you for not catching his correct reply. He said THREAD! ... there are no FAQ threads in the forum .... there is however as you have pointed out an FAQ on the home page.

Big difference. :)

[Maximus Decimus Meridius]

pff who need a thread ^^

So..... tell me Hill........ Why are you writting this instead of creating a faq thread? :p

[Rithal]

You are a mod rithal? Shame you! :p :D

http://warofrights.com/FAQ

Yeah you would be surprised by the amount of people who just go straight to the forum and ignore the website. :p

We will probably end up just copying the info from the FAQ on the site to the forum, but that's really up to Hinkel.

[Maximus Decimus Meridius]

So... thats the last time i do your work mister dev. ;) :D

Q: What is War of Rights?
A: War of Rights is a large-scale online authentic civil war first person experience featuring massive battles, a chain of command system, regiments and an extraordinary historical attention to detail.

Q: The civil war had a massive front line. What can we expect to experience in War of Rights?
A: At this current moment in development, we are creating four maps: Harper’s Ferry, South Mountain, Antietam and Shepherdstown. They are to represent our first campaign, the Maryland campaign of 1862. We are planning to add additional campaigns at a later stage

Q: When will War of Rights be available to play?
A: The first version of our smaller scaled engagements titled Skirmishes. This version will only available as a reward for Kickstarter backers.

Q: What game engine will War of Rights be running on?
A: War of Rights runs on Crytek’s powerful CRYENGINE.

Q: Which gaming systems will be able to run War of Rights?
A: We are exclusively developing War of Rights for the Windows PC platform at this point.

Q: What are the hardware requirements to be able to run War of Rights?
A: We are too early in the development process to estimate hardware requirements at this stage.

Q: I heard War of Rights would feature massive online battles. How many players will be able to play on a single server?
A: We cannot give an exact number at this point, but the end goal is “several hundred”.

Q: What about "AI"?
A: There are to be no AI in this game.

Q: How can I support War of Rights the most?
A: Spread the word! We have a relatively small community at this point – we would love to expand that. You can join the community at our forum here: http://warofrightsforum.com/. As stated above, War of Rights is currently without any other form of funding than the goodwill of the community. If you would like to support us with money, you can pledge for War of Rights at KICKSTARTER (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1947432146/war-of-rights/description).

Q: Where can I keep up to date on the development news of War of Rights?
A: You can follow us at indieDB here: http://www.indiedb.com/games/war-of-rights.
You can also like us on facebook here: https://www.facebook.com/WarOfRights?ref=bookmarks.
And subscribe to us on youtube at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCA1QYzsuDBilAxa6IDougDA.



So.... copy and paste

thank me later ;)

[A. P. Hill]

pff who need a thread ^^

So..... tell me Hill........ Why are you writting this instead of creating a faq thread? :p

Not my job. :)

[Maximus Decimus Meridius]

ok ok. i see. thats the job of lazy hinkel :p

[A. P. Hill]

ok ok. i see. thats the job of lazy hinkel :p

Quite possibly. I can't tell you what my job is.

Well actually I can. My job is to fetch coffee for Emil and Mads while they work. ;)

(now I suppose I'll get fired.)

[Maximus Decimus Meridius]

Only when the coffee is cold ;)

seriously:

You have a really important job Hill. Without you they wouldn't be so productive. THEY NEED YOU!!

oh.. hmm..

Ok. They only need the coffee and a little guy who fetch it :D :p

[A. P. Hill]

Only when the coffee is cold ;)

seriously:

You have a really important job Hill. Without you they wouldn't be so productive. THEY NEED YOU!!

oh.. hmm..

Ok. They only need the coffee and a little guy who fetch it :D :p

That about sums it up. ;)

[Maximus Decimus Meridius]

so.... hill pls change your tag from wor-dev to coffee fairy :p

only for correctness ;)

[Sigma]

That is indeed a great question! :)

The developers have developed ways to get around the issue of player limits on a server. Right now, we haven't been told what the max player limit will be, but we can assume it should be at least somewhere in the hundreds.

For skirmish battles specifically, small parts of the map will be sectioned off. For example, you may just be able to fight around Burnside's Bridge. Several hundred players concentrated in this small area will definitely succeed in making the battle seem very grand and massive. In addition, there will be a constant flow of players as they die. (In some game modes. These are still being developed) So you might see 40 - 50 players attack the bridge (This roughly simulates a company) then you will see that same amount of players attacking again and again. This is of course just an example, but you get the picture.

The developers are still trying to determine the max players on a server, and the pre-alpha will probably help a lot with that. I would say for phase 1 of skirmishes however, we might see anywhere from 16 - 32 players on a server to start. I ask one of the developers to confirm that number. :)

Hope that helps Sigma! Ask some more questions! I would be happy to help some more. :)


Thank you for the answer, sorry I didn't know about the AI question being asked a lot, I skimmed a few pages back before making the topic but I made the old mistake of not using the search. :P

Anyways what about under-populated servers though? (That's where the AI question idea I had was going) I am guessing the game devs will host the servers and it won't allow player created dedicated servers like some games allow. Will there be a system to funnel everyone evenly into the servers to prevent one server from being completely filled and another from always being at, or nearly empty? If there will be player created dedicated servers, have the devs been discussing ways of preventing the server list from being filled with too many servers and not enough players? On older games I played online this was a problem as it would usually cause the player base to thin out. While this wasn't as noticable on first person shooters where 15-20 or so people was a good number, due to the nature of this game, 15 or 20 people, or even 50-64, on a map intended for, say 150-200 would greatly impact the gameplay.

[Soulfly]

This is exactly the same discussion we already had Sigma. I have never read the Campfire Games wont allow "player created dedicated servers", i hope you dont mean those localhost servers like some source games use ? and i would rather wait how things develop regarding players/ filled servers before asking for AIs.

What has been funded already is the "Single Player Battlefield Tour" where you can scout the field alone, so maybe in a future far away there might be an option to add bots....

[TrustyJam]

Quite possibly. I can't tell you what my job is.

Well actually I can. My job is to fetch coffee for Emil and Mads while they work. ;)

(now I suppose I'll get fired.)


Silly to hire him really. Especially considering I don't even like coffee. :)

- Trusty

[BloodBeag]

Silly to hire him really. Especially considering I don't even like coffee. :)

- Trusty

what exactly does he do?

[David Dire]

what exactly does he do?

Be the coffee fairy for the people that enjoy coffee, of course.

[A. P. Hill]

what exactly does he do?

Not to worry, when the time comes, you'll thank US. :)

[Maximus Decimus Meridius]

Not to worry, when the time comes, you'll thank me. :)

There is the time Hill.

My coffee is empty.

Thank You. :D

[Shadow765]

In some games AI can be a little strange

[Maximus Decimus Meridius]

But there will be no AI................................................ .................................................. .................................................. ............................................ :rolleyes:

Pls. Moderator Team we need the FAQ ^^

[Shadow765]

But there will be no AI................................................ .................................................. .................................................. ............................................ :rolleyes:

Pls. Moderator Team we need the FAQ ^^

I know lol

[Maximus Decimus Meridius]

ohh. so I don't understand your post. sorry mate :)

[Shadow765]

ohh. so I don't understand your post. sorry mate :)

I'm just making a statement. I'm not saying to implement it lol. (hope i don't sound a douch :) sorry if i sound one) *salutes*

[Maximus Decimus Meridius]

ok. so I understand you right. I thought you say that and keep in mind that a AI will be implemented

[Schwieger]

It really is an interesting issue though, because most shooters are playable with smaller teams, but for this, without people, it becomes nearly unplayable. I think the choice not to add AI is an interesting one, at best, because of this. It might behoove them to re-evaluate the reality of the situation at hand and perhaps give some new serious consideration to the addition of at least some sort of AI.

[Shadow765]

For me it's fine if the AI will be implemented or not I'm like I between yes and no

Edit:Pretty sure there will be loads of players in a server, when the game is released on steam

[Patrick Kurtz]

The game alone has more than 2,000 backers, as well as 700+ people playing in the beta/alpha, I don't think there should be any worry.

[SemajRednaxela]

The game alone has more than 2,000 backers, as well as 700+ people playing in the beta/alpha, I don't think there should be any worry.

Apologies as I can't see this, but where does it say 700+ will be playing alpha / beta??

Can't seem to find those stats.

[Challis89]

Quite possibly. I can't tell you what my job is.

Well actually I can. My job is to fetch coffee for Emil and Mads while they work. ;)

(now I suppose I'll get fired.)

Ah so your the rookie a simple trick i learned at the fire station on training night is to avoid tea duties be late into the tea room, lack of patience always wins.

[GSXPR0D1GY]

Has anyone given a specific reason why there won't be AI? I'm curious to know.

[R21]

I'm assuming server-load, 200 Players (which i'm still skeptical about) will be a big enough feat to pull off, add to that (Good, or even half decent) AI and you'll probably be waiting until 2027 to play this Game.

[Rithal]

I'm assuming server-load, 200 Players (which i'm still skeptical about) will be a big enough feat to pull off, add to that (Good, or even half decent) AI and you'll probably be waiting until 2027 to play this Game.

The developers will be making servers as big as possible as long as performance doesn't take a major hit. Stress tests for servers will most likely take place in the skirmishes 1 phase of the alpha in order to better determine the maximum size for servers. One can't really say how big the servers will be right now.

[R21]

I'd be surprised if they surpass 100, they've also said they don't have the Source code for the Game so it really would be an accomplishment to get even 100.

Squad has 100 but it's on UE4 where I think they have access to that kind of thing, there are also loads of issues with the Game (Hit detection/server crashes) due to the sheer amount of Players on a Modern Engine.

[Willie Fisterbottom]

I'm assuming server-load, 200 Players (which i'm still skeptical about) will be a big enough feat to pull off, add to that (Good, or even half decent) AI and you'll probably be waiting until 2027 to play this Game.

What there are many games that can accommodate at least 200 players on the map at any time.

[Legion]

I'd be surprised if they surpass 100, they've also said they don't have the Source code for the Game so it really would be an accomplishment to get even 100.

Squad has 100 but it's on UE4 where I think they have access to that kind of thing, there are also loads of issues with the Game (Hit detection/server crashes) due to the sheer amount of Players on a Modern Engine.

I wouldnt be suprised if they got higher than 200 players, other games do it all the time, take eve for example they can have over 3000 on a single server, granted it slows down time to accomodate that many people but it is possible.

[A. P. Hill]

Has anyone given a specific reason why there won't be AI? I'm curious to know.

Ummm .... because it's a first person shooter? :D

And the intent it is to replicate the formations of the armies with players and not bots or AI. For as realistic a live feeling as possible. Not to mention the total randomness this will provide and more likely produce.

---


I'd be surprised if they surpass 100, they've also said they don't have the Source code for the Game so it really would be an accomplishment to get even 100.

Squad has 100 but it's on UE4 where I think they have access to that kind of thing, there are also loads of issues with the Game (Hit detection/server crashes) due to the sheer amount of Players on a Modern Engine.

World of Tanks claims it has millions of players! World of Warcraft hosts millions of players, (or did when it was initially popular.) So did Everquest, And Turbine's Dungeon and Dragons hosted thousands ... IT can be done.

So why should you be surprised?

All it takes is for the word to get out and the good fortune that this endeavor become wildly famous.

[R21]

What there are many games that can accommodate at least 200 players on the map at any time.



I wouldnt be suprised if they got higher than 200 players, other games do it all the time, take eve for example they can have over 3000 on a single server, granted it slows down time to accomodate that many people but it is possible.


Not on CE3, it's an intensive Engine that isn't designed out of the box for those Player Numbers.


I'd love to be proven wrong, I genuinely would and I hope I am, i'm just of the opinion that if they get even close to that 200 count it'll be through massive teething issues (like servers just completely crashing and being completely unstable). The reason i'm of this opinion is this Game:

http://store.steampowered.com/app/299740/

Nothing but problems with servers (32 Player servers) with people unable to connect/server crashes, there were big discussions on their forums about why it was happening and they'd just constantly blame Crytek and say there were issues with the net-code that were Hard-coded and had to be solved from Cryteks end.

The reason I mention this is because I hope this Games Dev team gets a jump on all of this stuff and I hope they get as close to 200 as they can. If they've already got solutions in place that let them get these Player numbers then i'm glad to be proven wrong.

[Jonny Powers]

Apologies as I can't see this, but where does it say 700+ will be playing alpha / beta??

Can't seem to find those stats.

These numbers have been estimated from backing numbers available on the War of Rights Kickstarter page, which can be found here:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1947432146/war-of-rights/description

[R21]

The Game I've been referencing has announced this:

http://steamcommunity.com/games/299740/announcements/detail/652265279125497348

They've got an outside Company to make an AI system for their Game, I doubt the WOR team will do anything like this but it's interesting move they've made.

Who knows, if the WOR team make enough Money through Steam maybe they could do something similar.

[crazychester1247]

MEANWHILE AT CAMPFIRE GAMES!

Hinkel: "Okay guys we have a problem. How do we create the illusion of massive battles?:confused:"

Trusty: "I know! We'll actually have massive battles!:p"

[Steiner]

MEANWHILE AT CAMPFIRE GAMES!

Hinkel: "Okay guys we have a problem. How do we create the illusion of massive battles?:confused:"

Trusty: "I know! We'll actually have massive battles!:p"


Haha nice one!

[crazychester1247]

and then Hinkel felt stupid.;)

[SemajRednaxela]

These numbers have been estimated from backing numbers available on the War of Rights Kickstarter page, which can be found here:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1947432146/war-of-rights/description

Cheers old sport.

[A. P. Hill]

Just as a cursory note:

WoR has 3,199 followers on steam ... Imagine all these folks on a server at one time ... no illusions needed.

[Willie Fisterbottom]

Just as a cursory note:

WoR has 3,199 followers on steam ... Imagine all these folks on a server at one time ... no illusions needed.

Oh i could imagine that... i can just imagine all that lag :P

[SemajRednaxela]

Just as a cursory note:

WoR has 3,199 followers on steam ... Imagine all these folks on a server at one time ... no illusions needed.

WOW!!

Now that's made me happy for the rest of the day.

[crazychester1247]

and some 10'000 facebook likes.

[Willie Fisterbottom]

WOW!!

Now that's made me happy for the rest of the day.

Except those 3200 are spread across several continents and all 3200 would never be on at the same time

[A. P. Hill]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xyh-JpWdGmQ

[SemajRednaxela]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xyh-JpWdGmQ

Massive thumbs up sir.